Christian Marriage, Part 2

[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome to that's a Good Question, a podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. If you or someone you know has questions, please submit them to roundthetable.co questions. Well, hey, welcome to that's Good Question. I'm John. I get to serve as your host. I'm here with my wonderful wife, Stephanie. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:32] Speaker A: And we are excited to talk again about Christian marriage, about God's vision for marriage. So last time, we talked a lot about some of the basic biblical foundations for a Christian marriage. And this time, we're gonna answer some more questions related to more sort of practical stuff related to that. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Getting into the nitty gritty. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Getting into it. Yep. Excited to do that. So let's talk about this. Let's maybe start here. Last time, we talked about why marriage is hard, and we talked about the biblical principle of sin breaking marriage. Let's start with our own story here. Why did we realize or when did we realize after getting married that it was tough? [00:01:09] Speaker B: So I can think of two different times within the first, like, 24 hours of us being married. Yeah, the first one was actually, I was so excited to be your wife and to submit to you. Like, that was a major part of our wedding vows of. Part of me, like, vowing to be a submissive wife to you. And I remember, like, in the car on the way to the Detroit airport to fly to Florida. We. It was my idea to listen to this podcast episode on how a wife could submit and serve her husband when he's a pastor. And I was so excited to listen to this. And, like, halfway through, I started getting, like, really anxious and angry, and I'm like, we have to turn this off. And I. I did not even understand, like, what was happening in my mind and in my heart to cause, like, that reaction. Because I had been looking forward to marrying you since I was, like, what, 14 years old? And here we are, and I'm already like, oh, my word, I can't do this. What did I just promise to you? But the second one, I was ready [00:02:11] Speaker A: for you to tell the second story. I wasn't ready for you to tell that first story. I'm always very embarrassed of that first story because people look at me like, well, they're like, wait, you just got married? And then, you know, morning one, you're driving to the airport and you made your wife listen to a podcast? [00:02:27] Speaker B: It was me that I wanted to. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. But still, I still. People look at me like I'm. I'm insane. And I guess I was. [00:02:35] Speaker B: No, you Are. Okay. The second one, though, that you are anticipating me sharing was us having a heated disagreement in the grocery store at like 12:30 in the morning. [00:02:45] Speaker A: It was like 2 in the morning. [00:02:46] Speaker B: Was it 2 in the morning? It was, it was. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Our flight got in super late. Yeah. Fort Myers, Florida, before we, you know, before we went onto the island where we were going to get to spend our a week honeymoon and we decided to go grocery shopping and we became some of the people of Walmart in the middle of the night. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:03:07] Speaker A: That's pretty much what happened. [00:03:08] Speaker B: We did. We were fighting in the cereal aisle over are we going to buy the generic cereal or are we going to like spray splurge and get the name brand cereal? [00:03:17] Speaker A: We're 21 years old, we had no money. I just graduated college, about to start grad school. You were working full time. Yeah, we were. Yeah. So we, that was our, you know, unwise on our part. That was our first conversation about how to have a budget as a married couple. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah, you should do that before you get married. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah. That's some great advice here. If you're engaged, you should talk about money and budgeting and, you know, before we got married, my budgeting was I worked a lot, I made money and I didn't spend anything. So therefore I had money. You know, I didn't really have to keep track of it because I just knew that I worked plenty and I didn't spend anything. So I was good. And then we got married. And it turns out you have to keep track of some stuff a little bit, especially when there's two of you. Yeah, yeah. [00:04:01] Speaker B: I like saving money, but I also know that we work and we have money and so it's okay to spend some of it. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yep, yep. And I didn't understand that, but I do know. Yeah. [00:04:11] Speaker B: So we learned very quickly that it's important to have conversations about finances and things like that. But I think that right off the bat, like on your honeymoon, in the honeymoon period, we still immediately felt that tension and that marriage is hard. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. So let's talk about some of the specific ways that. Okay. In marriage, you know, you're bringing two sinful, broken people together. So what are some specific and maybe even subtle ways that we manipulate each other, that we sin against each other? What are some things that husbands and wives commonly do to each other that are sinful or that bring us into bad places? [00:04:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I know in the last episode we kind of talked about the two ditches that you can fall into as a wife. Being a Doormat or a usurper. And I think sometimes I would never categorize myself as trying to take the leadership from you, but I was through manipulation. So I think any time that I think I'm not going to submit or do what you say until you lead me well is like turning whatever we're supposed to do into like this transactional thing that you can use for your manipulation. So if I felt like you didn't love me well that day, that I shouldn't have to make you dinner that night because I didn't feel loved. And that can. It really exposes a lot of sin in your heart because it's like we need to love out of the goodness of what God has called us to do. Not necessarily how I'm feeling that day. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think I can do that sometimes as well. Men can do that sometimes as well. You know, sometimes we think, you know, I come home from work and I say, babe, let me take the kids for the next two hours. And you go do whatever you want to do. And then, you know, at the end of two hours, I think, man, I am such a good husband. I deserve some kind of reward. And that might be, you know, physical intimacy. Yeah. Intimacy later or, or, or whatever. Or just some great treatment. I think that there must be a cape flowing behind me because I've been such a great husband and I deserve some kind of reward. Yeah. I think that's one of the common pitfalls that we have is that transactional mentality that I did this. Now you're going to do this earning, which is not the gospel. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Right. The gospel is not like Santa. If you do well and you're on the nice list, you get a present. But if you're on the bad list, you get cold. Like, that's not the way it works. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Right. Yep. That's transactional. That's works based in reality. It's. It's grace based. Right. Neither one of us deserve for the other person to show love or to live the way that God tells us to live, or both sinful, broken people. And yet we live according to God's design because we know it's what's best. [00:06:53] Speaker B: I think one way to kind of help with that too is if I view what I do as a wife primarily through loving the Lord and doing things his way. I think that really guards my heart against some of the manipulation and some of the transactional things because it orients my heart and it really softens it. And through that, I absolutely will show you love. And I want to do these things, but it keeps my heart and my mind oriented around. I'm serving Christ by serving you or doing things for you out of love. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah, same. My focus has to be not on. Not just on you, but on. On the Lord and doing what he has called me to do. Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things that you and I have learned a lot over the years is how valuable encouragement to each other is. That's one of those things that I don't think about a ton until. Until I talk with some other people and kind of hear a little about their situation and see that that's maybe not the case. I know that I am so much encouraged in my role by the things that you say. Actually, just yesterday, I was. I was preaching on a related topic. We're going through Song of Salomon at one of our. Our church campuses. And I. And I. Anyways, I talked about one of the things that, as a husband, that just makes me feel incredible is on Saturdays, I'm. I'm usually working on a project around our house. And you'll, you know, this. This past Saturday, I was working on our basement renovation project in the bathroom. And, you know, and you'll come down inevitably sometime during the day, and you'll look around and, you know, you couldn't care less, actually, about the, you know, the plumbing and the electrical and the things. You know, the things. But you look around and you say, honey, this looks so good. You're doing such a great job. Thanks for taking care of our family and adding this bathroom to our house because we got four kids and they're not going to share the bathroom with each other or us anymore. And so, you know, one shower isn't going to cut it, you know, And I just. Man, it makes me, you know, sort of stand up, throw my shoulders back, and I look off into the distance and feel that cape flow down over my shoulder. You know, I just feel like. Feel like a hero for my family. And that. That's. That means the world to me. [00:08:59] Speaker B: And I think that's something I had to, like, grow with. Like, that wasn't something that just immediately happened in our marriage. I think different personalities can tend towards different ways that that plays out. But I think sometimes it can feel really awkward if you're not used to giving compliments to other people or to your husband. Cause I think one of the roadblocks that I had was, well, what do I say that doesn't make it feel like it's canned or that I really genuinely want him to know, I'm thankful for these things, but how do I express that in a way where he knows it's not just because I want something? Because I think we all kind of know the joke of, like, you are so good at taking out the trash. I think you should always take out the trash. Like, so I think there's that tendency of. I genuinely want this to feel like a compliment. And at first it might feel awkward, but just do it like, it's okay to be awkward at first. And I think when you do it enough, it genuinely does start to feel genuine. [00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you have a lot of amazing ways of doing that. And I think it's interesting for each of us. We try to both do this for each other, because I think the world gives us the wrong message in multiple different ways. But, you know, I think there's. There's some outside of the home appreciation I experience, like, for doing my job right. There's, like, there's people I interact with at work who might show appreciation for my work, but then essentially, you come home, and I think for a lot of guys, feel like at home, the work that I did outside of the home has, you know, is not appreciated. But you will often say things to me like. Like, if I come home from a hard day or something. Or even sometimes when you come home with the groceries, you might say, honey, thanks for going to work every day and providing for us so that we have groceries. And you don't say it sarcastically. You say it very seriously. You're like, hey, thank you. [00:10:44] Speaker B: No, it's a conversation I have with the kids. I'm trying to train them to actually thank you. Like, yesterday when I came home, I was like, all right, kids, we went grocery shopping. Like, what do you say to dad? And I had them say, dad, thanks for working so that you can have money so we could get the groceries today. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, and one of the ironies, too, is that, like, you run a business for our family and that you contribute to our income, too. But you. You. You make a point to help thank me for that. And likewise, I try to. I try to, you know, you as being primarily at home, don't get recognized for or don't get appreciated for a lot of the work that you do in our family. And so I try to point out those things, recognize those things. Thank you for those things, say, hey, you're doing such an awesome job. I appreciate this so much. So I think us doing that makes a big difference. And by the way, we're talking about some of the specific things in our family. Might be some different things in your family and situation, but yeah, but I [00:11:37] Speaker B: think in general, if I could just highlight something you said as a woman who I, I love being a stay at home mom. I think not for everybody's household, but for some women are going to maybe do some of the. More like jobs that are maybe unseen or that society or culture says are less than or not as valuable, like maybe doing laundry or going grocery shopping or meal prep. And I think one of the things that I love that you do really well is instill value and remind me that that is really important work. That that actually is gospel work. You know, folding laundry to the glory of God is God honoring to him. And so for you to compliment me and to thank me for doing those things, I think really means a lot as a wife. So just to note, like to husbands out there, I think you do that really well. That, that's. [00:12:27] Speaker A: You sometimes will say to me, you'll say, oh, I didn't, I didn't get anything done today. I didn't accomplish anything my day. You know, I didn't provide any value to our family today. And I'll say, no, you kept four small humans alive and educated them and, you know, lots of other things. So, yeah, I think those, I think those encouraging words that we give to each other, I think make a, a world of a difference in our marriage. [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:52] Speaker A: All right, so one of the categories of questions that came in is some people ask some questions about emotional affairs in marriage, which is an important question and something that people experience today. So let's talk a little bit about that. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So, John, what do you think would qualify as an emotional affair and why are they so dangerous? [00:13:12] Speaker A: Yeah, a couple of thoughts come to mind immediately. One is that often a physical or sexual affair starts as an emotional affair. That's often how it starts. So there's that clear danger. But also even beyond that, you know, we know that our intimacy with our spouse is not just physical, it's not just sex. And so if you have that emotional intimacy with somebody else, you're already kind of in an unhealthy place. [00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I think for women, this is an area where it's really easy to start wading into territory that's really dangerous. I know for me, a really practical check for me is that if this conversation or this text thread, if there's like a transcript to the conversation, and would I be okay with my husband reading it? Would I be okay with my husband seeing it? And if the answer is, no, then you should not be doing it. [00:14:10] Speaker A: And likewise for me, I have those same thoughts. Yeah, you know, there's. There's plenty of women that I interact with in the workplace. And yeah, I'll. I'll sometimes think, you know, am I, Am I talking and speaking in a way? Am I getting too deep into any personal things? Am I good? You know, I just. Everyone wants to. You know, it's not something I think about a ton. I think I have a lot of really healthy relationships in that way, but I. Every once in a while, that's kind of the framework. I might just make sure I'm in a good place. And one of the things that I think I hear from others, I. I hear people talk about maybe they're. They're married and they say that they have a. A best friend of the opposite gender. And I'll be honest, I just, man, I just don't think that that's, That's a good place to be. I just, I know that. I know some people are just going to say, well, that's, that's crazy and that's restrictive and that's, you know, you're, you're drawing such a hard line there. But I just, man, the, you know, if you, if by best friend you mean the person that you're processing deep feelings with, talking about even your marriage, then that can't be somebody of the opposite gender. So, I mean, I guess when I, when I say I'm thinking about what, am I sharing too much personal stuff, like, with a co worker? That's. That's the kind of stuff I'm thinking about. Like, I would never go to a female co worker and start talking about our marriage. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:28] Speaker A: You know, I might tell like a funny story from the weekend or something, but I'm not gonna, like, start saying, hey, we're having a hard time with that. You know, Like, I'm never gonna start talking about things that we're struggling with. I have, I have, I have male friends to talk about some of those things with, but I'm not gonna talk to a female friend or co worker about that kind of stuff. [00:15:47] Speaker B: And I think you and I have set up, like, guardrails in our interactions with other people to try to save this and save the heartache and not enter into this. I know you and I, these are things that you and I have had in our relationship that if we're going to have a texting with another person of the opposite gender, I'm either telling you about it, or it's like A group or it's a group because a lot of times it's like, my friends that are males, I'm also friends with their wives. So, like, I wouldn't just engage in a text conversation with just him. Like, I would include his wife and. Yeah, and so there's that. You and I, you know, are not in a car together with just one other person that's of the opposite gender. We've just. We have different things that we've talked about that like, hey, we're both agreeing to do these things to try to prevent an emotional affair from starting. [00:16:35] Speaker A: And a lot of that is often called, like, the Billy Graham rule, because Billy Graham's kind of famous for having that rule that he doesn't, you know, have. Have lunch alone or riding a car alone with. With a woman, you know, with somebody of the opposite gender. And people today kind of make fun of that and talk about that as being, you know, too strict and things like that. But, man, it just. It makes so much sense. [00:16:55] Speaker B: It does. [00:16:56] Speaker A: It really does. So, yeah, I think that's a really important starting place. Another question that we get a few times, and it's here on the list a couple of times, is what do I do if my spouse refuses to pray with me? And specifically from women, what do I do if my husband refuses to lead our family spiritually? [00:17:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. This is a conversation that I've had with multiple women. Being involved with the women's Bible study and through different ministries that I've done. It's really hard. Your heart just aches for these women sometimes. It's. You were both not Christians and then one of you became a Christian in marriage. But with this, I think the first thing you do is you pray. Because as a wife, I can't strong arm you into leading our family. Well, I need to realize that I can't change your heart, that God is the one that changes your heart. So I'm going to pray to God who has the authority and the ability to bring about this softening of your heart and this desire to lead our family spiritually. [00:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah. My recommendation has usually been, that's so helpful to hear from you and especially from, you know, I know that you guys have lots of those conversations in women's ministry. For me, my recommendation that I've given a few different times is just that a man can be challenged in a different way by other men versus by women, especially their wife. Right. So I think your best way to influence me to grow in something is through positive conversation, through encouragement. That's not to say that you can't call me back, call me out when that needs to happen. You know, sometimes those kind of conversations have to happen. But mostly I would say your best influence towards me is going to be through encouraging and appreciating the things that you want to see more of in me. And I think the hard talks are best coming to me from men in my life. You know, men expect other men to call them out, even harshly, right? To just say, dude, you're failing here. You're messing up. Whereas if my wife were to say to that to me, that's, that's. I mean, that just cuts so differently, so deeply. Whereas from a man, I go, oh, man, you're right. I'm doing terrible at that, and I got to do better. And I want. I want to be a better man. You know, it just. It just strikes you different words for, you know, if I hear from you instead, if I hear, like when I. If I'm somebody who's not praying with my family, and then I do it once, and then you tell me how much that meant the world to you, then I'm like, oh, man, I want to do more of that. You know, so that's just. I think generally how a husband reacts to feedback from his wife versus from other men. And so one of the things I would say to women who have a husband who's. Who's really struggling is getting him involved with great godly men. So like you said, praying for him is the first and most important thing you can do. I would say second is maybe getting him involved with good godly men. A men's Bible study, men's ministry, men in your church. Get him. I try to help him get a mentor. I know that can be challenging to try to get a man to start doing those things, but try to encourage him however you can. But if he can get some great godly men in his life to speak truth to him, that's gonna make a world of difference. [00:20:10] Speaker B: And I think it's First Peter that talks about this. In First Peter, when it talks about submission, if you look at the context, it's talking about a wife. How do you interact and how do you submit to your husband, who's an unbeliever? And in that text, it starts with you pray, and then after that, it tells her how to act. So it's saying, pray and do not pray and say. Because I think so often as a wife, we're. We're wanting to say things to you. Maybe, maybe it's encouragement, which is great. But sometimes I think as women, we can have really sharp tongues and be really critical of our husbands. And so I just think it's so important to start with prayer and then, and then show your actions and give that, give your husband a safe space that he feels like he can step into that leadership role and it not be threatening to him. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Yeah. First Peter 3 is that passage where it's talking about a what if you're a woman and you've got an unbelieving husband? Right. What do you do? How do you, how do you live? And part of the point is that you would win him over through your good character actions, your prayer for him, your demonstration of the Christian life, and would hopefully win him over over time. So, so to that question of if you're, if your husband refuses to pray with you, I guess I'm imagining that's because he's an unbeliever. And so then you're in that role of, you're, you're, you know, you're in an evangelistic situation with him. Now if he calls himself a believer and he refuses to pray with you, I, I think you're, the actions you take are probably going to be similar, but for him, that is a bit of a different situation. He needs some brothers in his life to call him out and tell him he's. He's failing because he is. But again, as a wife, to say that is, is tough. I'm not saying that there's, I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe you can find a way to say that, but it's just very different hearing that from a man versus a woman. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:05] Speaker A: All right, so let's talk about, let's talk a little about forgiveness. This is an important question and it's really central to Christian marriage because Christian marriage is all about the gospel. So let's talk about that. So why is forgiveness central to a strong marriage? [00:22:20] Speaker B: Well, I think you were saying earlier that what is the purpose of marriage? It's to emulate Christ in the church. Is there forgiveness that we need to ask for Christ? Yes. So I think that shows us right off the top. [00:22:31] Speaker A: And I should point out, you know, the, the picture in Ephesians 5 is right of the, the husband corresponds to Jesus and the wife corresponds to the church. But when it comes to grace and forgiveness, it's not quite like that, you know. Right. Like every analogy and illustration isn't a exact one to one. And so this isn't a one to one. So when it comes to forgiveness and grace, it's not just husband and wife. It's both ways, you know, because we're both sinners, so both of us emulate Jesus. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think right off the bat, I mean, you see, you're both sinners. Sinners need forgiveness because sinners hurt each other. And so what we do then with that hurt is what kind of, I think, determines the strength of our marriage. Are you going to harbor resentment towards one another and not forgive, or are you going to say, God, you've called me to forgive. You have me married to this man or this woman, and I know that we're in this for life. It's not about our happiness. We're in this till one of us dies. You know, forgiveness is the best path forward. And what that exactly looks like, I think depends on what the act is that is needing forgiveness. But forgiveness absolutely does need to be at the center of a marriage. [00:23:37] Speaker A: Yeah. We're broken, sinful people. You're always going to sin against each other. It's. The question isn't if. The question is when and how do you do it? [00:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:46] Speaker A: How do you deal with it? [00:23:47] Speaker B: And I think having that assumption really helps. If you're listening to this and you're not married and you're engaged or thinking about what does marriage look like, I think that's a really important distinction to start off. It's not if, it's when and how you're going to hurt each other. [00:24:00] Speaker A: Right. Some of those stories of marriages that have really been in painful places and then through grace and forgiveness have gotten to really healthy places are some of the most powerful stories that I hear in marriages. I'm not suggesting you get to that bad place on purpose in order to have a great story, but just to say that, yeah. Marriages are supposed to be pictures of the gospel. So if you're got. If you've gotten to a dark place, it doesn't have to be the end. It's a beautiful opportunity for a great gospel story of forgiveness and grace and healing, reconciliation. That's what Jesus did for us. Yeah. So real quick, what are some practical habits that we can do that make Jesus the Lord of our marriage and help us live that out? [00:24:47] Speaker B: I think one of the things that I love that you lead us in every night is that you pray for us. So, like, at night, after the kids are in bed, like, we're getting ready to turn off the lights, you'll kind of grab my hand. You're like, hey, can I pray for us? And. And sometimes you pray. Sometimes you're like, hey, how can I [00:25:01] Speaker A: catch you before you fall asleep? Because you. [00:25:03] Speaker B: When my head hits the pillow, I'm like, out. [00:25:05] Speaker A: You pass out very quickly. So I've got limited time. I have to catch it quickly. [00:25:10] Speaker B: Thank you for telling everybody that. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:25:12] Speaker B: Sorry. No, but I just. I love that, that you do that for me. Because so often, you know, sometimes you ask that, and sometimes I fall asleep immediately afterwards. But sometimes that leads into some of the best conversations that you and I have. Because when you ask your spouse, how can I pray for you? What comes up? It's what has happened that day? What are some maybe areas that you're, you know, anxious about with the kids or anxious about with your work, and you're opening your heart to your spouse, and you're, You're. You're showing that you're a safe person, that you can trust me with your heart. Like, this is a good thing for us in our marriage. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's one of the most telling questions you can ask somebody is, what are you praying for in your life? And how can I pray for you? You know, it should be an opportunity to talk about their greatest hopes and fears. You know, and I, I think that's. That's usually what I'm hearing from when I ask that question. I'm. I'm often hearing, what are the things you're worrying about right now? What are the things you're hoping for right now? And then, yeah, I get a chance to pray. So, yeah, praying together, reading the Bible together. These are. I know these sound cliche and simple, but ask yourself, am I doing these things? You know, and then. And then come back to me and tell me, you know, say you can complain, John, you're giving us too simple of advice. But then. But wait. But are you doing these things? You know, so that's the thing. Is it simple? Sure. But how many couples are actually doing it? So I think we realized early on in our marriage that reading scripture together was awkward. But we just kind of said, well, it's awkward and we're just going to embrace it. And so, you know, it's not going to be the same as a Bible study that you might have with five to 10 people at your church. It's going to be. It's going to feel different. There's a different number of people, and you have a. You have a very unique relationship as being married people. So, you know, pick a passage of scripture, read it, and then just. The conversation can be short. It's okay. You know, you say, what did we learn About God. What did we learn about ourselves? What's one to two? You know, applications, things we can change in our lives right now. And you could talk about that. And even if you only read it and don't have a deep discussion afterwards, that's okay. Yeah, I think that's okay. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Can I be spicy for a second? [00:27:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:22] Speaker B: If you can be naked with each other, you can read the Bible together. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Ah, gotcha. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Like. [00:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Those are both vulnerabilities. [00:27:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker A: That requires. [00:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:33] Speaker A: At first I thought you were recommending reading the Bible together naked, and I thought that's very interesting advice. You're saying if you have the vulnerability to be intimate together physically, then you should have the vulnerability to be intimate together spiritually. Yeah. [00:27:46] Speaker B: If you can have the physical intimacy, you can have the spiritual intimacy. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. One great. I think opportunity for reflection would be. What's this passage that we recommend that people read in Colossians chapter three? What are the verses? [00:28:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think verse. Oh, it ended at 15. If you just read Colossians 1:1 through 15, you're going to see some lists in there. [00:28:10] Speaker A: I thought it was Colossians chapter three. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Oh, that's what I meant to say. What it is. Oh, Colossians chapter three, verse one through 15 or 17. [00:28:18] Speaker A: There's just a great list in there of. Of ways to interact together. And I think reflecting on that and saying what's. And saying to the other person, you know, here's something that I think you're doing really well, and here's something that maybe you could grow in. Yeah. And let each person give a chance to do. I think that's a great way to have a good practical conversation about how to live more closely to God's design in your marriage. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just looked it up. I think specifically chapter three, verses 12 through 15. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Gotcha. Yeah. I knew there was. I couldn't. I knew the chapter. I couldn't remember which verses we had. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Recommended to people in the past. All right, with the time we have left, let's do a little lightning round. [00:28:56] Speaker B: All right, here's a question. Is it adultery to begin a relationship before you are legally divorced? [00:29:02] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. [00:29:06] Speaker B: Okay. [00:29:06] Speaker A: I. I think. Yeah. But, yeah, you're. I mean, you're still in a covenant. You are still married, therefore you can't have a covenant with somebody else or begin to explore that possibility. Yeah. [00:29:22] Speaker B: All right. [00:29:22] Speaker A: So one of the things that I said, by the way, this is a little bit off topic to this question, but this came up in. In. In a sermon that I gave Yesterday and then with a gentleman who asked some questions afterwards. I just feel like he. He was somebody who was kind of had. Had been through this and was just asking questions about, you know, a divorce. A person who's been through a divorce is. Is a group that maybe we don't speak to enough in. In sermons and in the church. And so, so let me just add on to that, because he was kind of asking a really good question of, you know, we will preach, don't have sex before you get married. But what about those who have been divorced and are entering the dating world a second time? What does that look like? Because I under. I understand. And this person was expressing just, you know, it's a. It's a unique challenge because you've already been there, you know, like before marriage. It's like, hey, you haven't been to that place of. Of marital intimacy before, but then you've been married, you're on the other side of it, and you're entering that dating relationship again. He was expressing that. That's just that much harder. And so just emphasizing. I think. I think you probably know this, right, if you're. If you're a believer, but maybe you just need to hear it again sometimes. But, yeah, that's. That's still sin. Any intimacy outside of the covenant of marriage is sin. So whether that's before marriage, whether that's during marriage with somebody who's not your spouse, or whether that's after a marriage now with somebody who is not your new spouse, that's all the above is sin. [00:30:51] Speaker B: All right, so your next one that kind of leads into that, then, is what are Peace Church's beliefs on remarriage? [00:30:58] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. So there's tons we could say about that. That could be like a whole episode on its own. I'm trying to remember. Remember if we've done that. Actually, that's possible that we've done that. But there's several important passages in scripture that you want to look at. I think of Matthew, chapter 19. I think of 1 Corinthians, chapter 5. Jesus explains some. Some really sad situation in which a marriage can be dissolved. It's never God's design or recommendation to have a divorce. And yet basically, looking at those passages, I would say that divorce is biblically permissible in a couple of rare circumstances. Adultery is one that is clearly named. Abandonment is one that is clearly named by Paul. And then often we say that abuse is the other one. And that can be seen as really kind of a version of one of the other ones that really because of if you're doing abuse, you have, in a way, totally violated the marriage covenant by the actions that you're taking. So you could say that you've really abandoned your spouse by failing the terms of the covenant so badly. And what Paul is saying is actually that it's really, you've become an unbeliever because you've abandoned your spouse. So anyways, look at those important passages, and I think those give us the boundaries around divorce. Again, it's never God's recommendation. It's always a sad and tragic thing, and yet there is permission for that to happen in some rare and terrible situations. And then the short answer, again, this could be such a long hair answer, but I'd say that remarriage is biblically permissible when you've had a biblically permissible divorce. And there's so much deeper we could go with that. I always would recommend going to your pastor and talking about that and think through that very carefully. There's a lot of nuance there that we'd want to get to, but that's kind of the basic premise that I start with. Great question. Important question. Well, hey, thanks so much, everybody for joining us. Thanks, Stephanie, for talking about marriage. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah, happy to be here. [00:33:08] Speaker A: Thanks, everybody. We hope you have an awesome week.