Christian Nationalism Pt. 2

[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome to that's a Good Question, a podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. If you or someone you know has questions, please submit them at peacechurch cc. Questions? Hey, welcome to that's a Good Question. [00:00:27] Speaker B: We're back. Part two. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Part two. Last week, we talked about Christian nationalism, began to talk about how to define it. Where did this come from in our national conversation. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:38] Speaker A: And then we started thinking about how is it that Christians relate to the nation, how is it that our faith relates to politics, all that kind of stuff. And so we want to pick up and continue down that road of thinking about how does our faith impact our politics? How does that relate to this term that's being thrown around? Christian nationalism? [00:00:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think what we kind of went back and forth on in the recording and just personally, as we've talked, is there is something attractive about it, and I want you to explain what. What is attractive about the term Christian nationalist? We talked about how there isn't as much clarity as we would like in what it means. And so that's why we're. We're saying we just can't say. We are that. Because there's not clarity on it. But why is it so attractive? [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a question worth asking anytime, like a movement like this comes up or a label or a term, because it's, you know, clear. You know, something like this arises because there's some sort of felt need that it meets. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. [00:01:34] Speaker A: And so I think that's the thing. I think some people are eager to call themselves Christian nationalists and are excited about that label and that movement because they feel a few things. And so here's. Here's a couple of things that I think that people feel. Number one, I think a lot of Christians are sort of feeling like we are just sort of slowly surrendering to secularism. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:59] Speaker A: We're Christians are slowly letting ourselves be removed from the national conversation. We're sort of. There's a lot of. [00:02:06] Speaker B: There's a lot of sit down, be nice, stay quiet. [00:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Just submit. [00:02:10] Speaker B: Just mind your own business. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Mind your own business. Faith is a private thing. Just keep it at church. Don't let it, you know, relate to the laws and. And voting and. And stuff like that. And so I think a lot of Christians are sort of finally sick of that. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:27] Speaker A: And are looking for an alternative. Now, as we've already been talking about, I don't think what we're seeing in some versions of Christian nationalism, those advocated by. So basically, the people who would are Eager to call themselves Christian nationalists and embrace that term. I'd say that the. The picture they're painting is really not the answer. But I can understand why people are attracted to this idea of just being really clear, really outspoken. Some might call it even, you know, like muscular. You know, it's just a strong response that says, no, I'm a Christian. [00:02:59] Speaker B: I have a backbone. [00:03:00] Speaker A: I have a backbone. I'm going to stand. And. And here's what I think. [00:03:03] Speaker B: And. [00:03:03] Speaker A: And here it is. [00:03:04] Speaker B: Which actually I think we're trying to do. We're trying to let faith be as bold as it ought to be in our lives and in our nation. And, yeah, I think what's interesting about the kind of the term coming up is it started as a derogatory term. People weren't really using it, and then it was a derogatory term. And then people were like, well, yeah, I am that anytime that's the way things are, there's confusion that comes with it. I even think of. [00:03:30] Speaker A: And I get how that happened. I think that's actually a little bit of a. I think maybe especially in the conservative movement, you know, we have more of that instinct of, like, you're going to call me that. Well, I'm just going to own it. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Go, you know, 10x on it. [00:03:42] Speaker B: I think it's like the Puritans, right. I love reading Puritans. I love what, you know, the lives they lived and what they stood for and a lot of beliefs actually, that fall within it. And I don't agree with all of them, but there is this beautiful theological richness in Puritan writings, and they didn't choose that term. It was used against them. And it was used against them in a way of saying, like, you have no fun. And you're like, you're. [00:04:05] Speaker A: You're puritanical. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You're. You're so focused on getting, on being precise that it. It takes the spirit out of it. And they would argue like, no, we're. We're chasing after the spirit of our faith and trying to get things right in truth. But the term stuck and they owned it. And now I think this, the general thought of what a Puritan is, is a negative thing, because the term's a negative word. It was. Or used negatively. And so. [00:04:30] Speaker A: So precisely, that labeling tactic has been effective historically. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that Christian nationalism, in a sense, came about through using it as a derogatory term. So that's an uphill battle. And then also I think that there are enough people using the term like you're saying, but they don't actually care about the Christian part. They just are culturally Christian. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:53] Speaker B: And so they're. They're willing to let what the phrase means to be something that is very unchristian. [00:05:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Like we were talking about with ethnic lines and. And that kind of stuff. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Well, and even there was an example just last week on. On X, there's a guy who is advocating for some things. I don't want to go way into the details of the thing, but he's advocating for some positions that I think a lot of Christians would agree with or he's working against, you know. Yeah. Some ideas that Christians would agree with, but he's doing so in a way that's very ungodly. The posts that he's making are really crass, inappropriate language. And then at the bottom he writes king. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, I. I sort of support, you know, the fact that you're pushing back against this thing that's anti Christian, but then you're saying all these ungodly things and then putting Christ as king at the bottom. That's not how this works. That's not. [00:05:49] Speaker B: So there's enough people using the term, trying to, you know, trying to define it, but with things that are actually anti Christian because they're cultural Christians, and then there are genuine Christians that are trying to make a biblical case for it, but because of the waters being so mud, it's really difficult to do that in the landscape we're in. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Like, because of. Because of how our political theology should push us to get involved. We don't want muddy waters. We want clear waters. Yeah, we want clear waters. So what does it look like for a Christian, for a individual Christian to engage in politics? And what does it look like for the church for all of us to engage? What? [00:06:33] Speaker A: Oh, boy. So we're gonna take our shot at trying to make it clear in a very difficult conversation, but we're gonna take. [00:06:38] Speaker B: A shot at it. And to your point, it's like we're trying to be Christian and we want to be patriotic where it's the Christian thing to do. [00:06:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Where it's good to be patriotic. We want to be. We want our nation to uphold Christian values. Right, Right. [00:06:49] Speaker A: We do. [00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And our priority is to be Christian first and then to uphold just laws. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Right. And so actually, just as a point of clarity, I feel like the major thing that would distinguish us from those who really readily call themselves Christian nationalists is probably, again, some people would call us Christian nationalists. But the difference is probably that we're saying we want to exercise a lot of influence of Christianity on our nation, and yet we don't believe in establishing a state church. We don't believe in the full entanglement of church and state. We don't believe in, you know, like, repealing the First Amendment or something. I think that's probably like a major difference. And I'm not saying that everybody who owns the label of Christian nationalists would say that they believe that, but there are definitely some making that argument. They're saying there are some out there who are saying we should go back to medieval Europe, Christendom, full entanglement of church and state. [00:07:43] Speaker B: And I want. I want to, like you use the word muscular. I want a muscular faith. Yeah. I want a church that is passionate about being the church, and I want a government that is upholding Christian values. Well, both of those things. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:58] Speaker B: So as an individual, how do you engage in politics? Yeah, as a Christian individual. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:04] Speaker B: And then I think we can get into what's the role of the church as an institution. [00:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. So I think some foundational ideas that we have to have as Christians as we think about the political world is, you know, God's truth is always true all the time. God's design is what's best, not just for the church, but for all of humanity. And so we want those principles, those ideas, those values to be exercised in the public square, not because we're trying to establish a national church, but because we're. We want to advocate for what is right and true and just and best for human beings. Things. Right. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Seek the good of the city. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Seek the good of the city. Jeremiah 29, like we talked about in the last episode. Absolutely. So I think that's. That's the. The core idea is that we. We're not trying to establish, you know, a state church, but we're also not going to retreat and treat our faith as though it's private and it's not. [00:09:04] Speaker B: We don't want to establish a state church because we're weak. It's because. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:09] Speaker B: We don't want the state to interfere with what the church is. Right. But we want the church to be able to influence the state. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Actually, I'm glad you said that because I want to. I want to clarify because. Yeah, what I'm saying is actually, you know, the separation of church and state in a lot of ways was originally to protect the church from the state, not the other way around. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:30] Speaker A: You know, one of the things that we know is that coercive conversion is actually not good for Christianity. You know, trying to tell people to follow Jesus at the point of a sword is not helpful to Christianity because that's not real conversion. People don't actually embrace Jesus as Lord and Savior when you tell them you have to become a Christian. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:50] Speaker A: You know, things like that, we, we don't want those sort of things. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:55] Speaker A: We also don't want the state saying this theology is correct and this theology will be punished. [00:10:02] Speaker B: I think, I think 1. I asked the question, how should individuals. I think for some, I think for all the calling is to. Yes. To vote for godly things and promote godly things, to be in law and promote the God, the government, to be godly in that sense and to not interfere with the church. But I think for some, the calling is to be involved in the government. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:30] Speaker B: In a, as a career. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Like his vocation. Yeah. A call. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We would love to have a high number of Christian congressmen, congresswomen, senators, presidents. You know, we'd love to have Christians involved in those roles. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Again, because we, we know that they, you know, they love Jesus, they love the Bible, and so they're going to carry God's vision for what is true and right and good into lawmaking and policy decisions. [00:10:56] Speaker B: I got somewhere to take us. So we had an episode on Charlie Kirk. Yeah. Who we thought very highly of. And even the work he did, which was a lot of political engagement as an individual. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Right. And a lot of what he did was point out inconsistencies or unjust things or, you know, things that weren't true and good and just on the left and, and at times on the right, too. Sure. I think that's a calling for us as individuals too. [00:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:25] Speaker B: I think one thing with the issue of Christian nationalism as a term is that there's, there's, there is enough people using the term and trying to make it represent something that is non Christian and not enough people calling those people out. And until the, the. As far as the term goes, it won't be a usable term for Christians if the scales don't shift more in the favor of. No, we need to, we need to kick people out if we're going to keep the term. And I don't think that's happening at the same pace of the amount of people using it in a non Christian way. But as far as our faith goes, we need to feel called to call out things that are not true wherever they are as well, in whatever Direction they fall. [00:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:12] Speaker B: So let's shift now to churches. Should those listening, if they attend their church and their pastor starts bringing up Christian nationalism, the question is, should my church be talking about Christian nationalism? Should they be supporting it? Should they be calling it out? Like, how should churches respond? [00:12:32] Speaker A: Interesting. Well, again, it's tough because the definitions aren't clear. So you're gonna have to listen to what your pastor says. Then what does he mean when he says Christian nationalism? I think that's gonna be the important thing. So if he's saying. You said. If he's calling it out. Right. Is that the. That's the question. So. Or. [00:12:46] Speaker B: Or supporting it. [00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's. That's the thing is, what is he supporting? What is he calling out? So if he's supporting that Christians should be vocal, that Christians should take biblical principles into the, you know, into the polls, into their, you know, their voting, into all that kind of stuff, then absolutely. That's. That's. That's great. Should be doing that. If he's saying, you know, that we should. And this is. This is. Some writers are saying this. If he's saying that we should rise up and through a violent revolution, establish a different sort of government, that's bad. Yeah, that's not what he should be saying. I think there's some things in that direction that would not be so good. We mentioned earlier that some have tied this nationalism to an ethnicity. So if your pastor is advocating for that sort of thing, that's. That's bad. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And I get the sentiment of feel like we're losing and we need to do something. Yes, we do. So let's talk more about what does the church need to do? What should the church. How should the church engage? And the point you just made is the point we've been making of, like, it's not really about what you call yourself as much as what are you supporting. Right. And so that's what you should ask whenever anyone brings up the word Christian nationalist. So that's kind of what we said. It's like, well, there's flavors of it that I'm like, heck, yeah, I'm that. And there's flavors of it that I'm like, no, I'm not that sure. So how should the church engage? What should our churches be doing and supporting and advocating for and calling out? [00:14:09] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we shouldn't be afraid to say what the Bible says, I think is the thing. [00:14:14] Speaker B: So preach the Bible. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Preach the Bible. I mean, that's the. [00:14:16] Speaker B: That's exclamation point. What is the role of the church? Start there. [00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that, that. Speaking of the role of the church, I mean. Yeah, that's, you know, God's kingdom. And God's call for the church is to work through the means of the Word and the Spirit. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:31] Speaker A: God has called the government to use the sword. I'm thinking of like, Romans 13 and how it explains that. So, so, yeah, I mean, that is very much what we want to say. Right. Is those are the tools that God's called us to use though the Word and the Spirit. Right. We're supposed to preach God's word, we're supposed to do the sacraments. We're supposed to make disciples of Jesus, and then disciples of Jesus are going to go and live out their faith in the public square. So, yeah, pastors shouldn't be afraid to speak about things that the Bible speaks about. Abortion. You know, Christians, churches should never be saying, oh, abortion is a political issue, so we won't talk about it. No, no, no. It's a moral issue. You're killing a baby. The Bible is very clear about what we should think about that. So don't be afraid to say it. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:11] Speaker A: You know, when it came to. There was a voting measure here in our state a couple years ago, and we talked briefly about whether or not this was okay, we should do this. I ended up deciding. We put out a banner that said, vote no on Proposal three. And plenty of people criticized us for that. You know, said, oh, you're, you know, that's, you know, separation of church and state. No, no, no. The buy this is. This is a moral issue and it's, it's a very clear issue. You know, abortion is antithetical to Christianity, to biblical values. And so we're going to just clearly say, hey, as Christians, we should vote no on Proposal three. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Have we done a. That's a good question on abortion. [00:15:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:49] Speaker A: I think once, once a year at least, we. Sanctity of life. Sunday, usually around that week, we at least do it. [00:15:54] Speaker B: I think that's a great. A phenomenal example because it's, it's just from a Christian worldview, it's so clear. [00:16:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:00] Speaker B: I think it's right to feel really passionate about it. And so when a pastor, when a church does say, we can't talk about that because it's political, it's like it's not just a difference on the role of the government, it's a difference on the role of the church. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:17] Speaker B: The church should talk about things like that. The church should preach the word of God and the biblical worldview. And that does. Then to get to our point, it does include having opinions, preaching authoritatively from the pulpit on the role of the government. Because the Bible says things about the role of the government and one of those is to protect its citizens. And we're not doing that to make it even more infuriating. We're unconstitutionally allowing it to be taxpayer funded. Right. So that's why it's. So that's why the church should be passionate and clear about that specific issue. So that's a great example of the role of the church. Preach the Bible, uphold a biblical worldview, be discipled in the way of Jesus. And that includes having some opinions on the role of the government. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Yeah. As Christians and as the church, we're going to use our influence to advocate for things that the Bible advocates for. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Is it wrong to have an American flag flying in your house? [00:17:19] Speaker A: At your house? No, I think that's, that's great. I love my nation. So. Yeah, let's. [00:17:25] Speaker B: I watch, I watch The Patriot every July 4th. Yeah, every year I feel like I want to get a Gasden flag or whatever it's called the don't try on me flag. I want to hang that in my front yard or whatever, you know, or like I want to, oh, what's it called? The Betsy Ross flag. [00:17:38] Speaker A: I want one of those pure cotton. [00:17:40] Speaker B: You know, that's fine. I have those kicks. I just don't have a flag holder. So I don't have a flag. But yeah, I don't. There's no there. So you're saying there's no issue with flying flag? [00:17:49] Speaker A: No, again that's where I go back to. I'm, I'm a Christian and patriot. I love my nation. I first and foremost love Jesus, but I also love my nation. Now there's nothing wrong with flying the American flag as a Christian. We've done episodes in the past, we've talked about whether or not having one in your sanctuary is an issue. And I've said, I said I don't advocate for having an American flag in your sanctuary just because the only thing that we're singing to, pledging allegiance to celebrating is Christ, Christ in the worship center. You know, that's the, that's the focus. So that's. So that's a matter. It's, that's not to say that we don't love our country when we go to church. It's just to say we have a flag. [00:18:24] Speaker B: Where's focus Outside our peace church. We have American flag Flying outside. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that actually brings up a good. Just out of all the rabbit holes we've opened up. Yeah. That's another one of just the flag in the sanctuary. I think it's a great point of we don't have hymns that are singing praise about America. [00:18:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Though we might talk about America as we talk about what. As we flesh out the Bible. Right, Right. [00:18:50] Speaker A: Another way to, I think, frame the question is how do I do what we're saying, which is to stay politically involved without losing a sense of my identity in the kingdom of God? [00:19:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:00] Speaker A: That I'm first and foremost a disciple of Jesus. How do I do both of those things? [00:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So we've talked about as an individual, as a church, and now we're thinking, man, we want Christianity to. To increase. Right. You want to be a. To. To grow. How do we boldly be a Christian in the public sphere without losing people into idols, without losing ourselves in the idols of political idols? I think first and foremost, we. We do need to keep first things first. And the. No matter how you spin it, we've already said this, but our priority is for the gospel to be preached, for people's hearts to be changed. I need to see people first and foremost, how God sees them. And that's either as a beloved child or someone's wayward and needs to hear the gospel and have their heart changed. [00:19:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:58] Speaker B: So we've talked about how should individuals conduct themselves and what's the role of the church in America and society? How do we go about these things without falling prey to idols? [00:20:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's the. That's the danger in, in anything and everything. Right. John Calvin said that our hearts are idle factories. Right. We can make it an idol out of anything, including even good things. So a love of country can become an idol. A desire to, you know, not become too politically involved can become a sort of an idol, you know, so you can air in. In either direction. So I think you've just got to continue to ask yourself, what is my first priority? Is my first priority to Jesus trying to be his disciple, trying to follow him? Is that my first priority? Or have I veered off the course and put my love of country above my love for Jesus? You know, that's. That's a question you can ask yourself. You could also, you know, so on the other side, then you could be asking yourself, have I. Have I put my fear of public opinion above my love for Jesus by saying, you know, I don't want to Speak out on this issue because people will say that that's too political, you know, so. So at that point, yeah, you're fearing man instead of fearing God. So you got to ask yourself, I think, those kind of questions. Make sure you're not making an idol in either direction. [00:21:22] Speaker B: One of my favorite quotes is a G.K. chesterton quote, and he says, the. The fear of God and the fear of man, one fear cancels out the other. [00:21:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:30] Speaker B: If. If you. If you notice your heart being afraid of man, then cast your eyes to the power of God. You know, I think another very important practical tactic is in how we respond to others, is to have an immense amount of grace. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:46] Speaker B: To be gracious towards those. Those brothers and sisters who disagree with us practically on how do we. Where do we go from here and how do we respond and how do we engage in politics. Having that grace, a sense of gratitude and grace, I think will help us humanize each other. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Sure. [00:22:02] Speaker B: And engage in this together as. As a church, as. As brothers and sisters. We actually don't mind those disagreements. We welcome those disagreements. We want to walk together through them. [00:22:12] Speaker A: Well, we're talking about the practical working out, applying of scripture. Right. Which is, you know, there's. There's. There's more lack of clarity. Right. It's not perfectly spelled out exactly how to apply these principles from the Bible in our everyday life. So you're gonna have some people that are going to lean, that are going to be, you know, you have some people in your life, probably you can think of names right now that are on that side of man. Yeah. You know, I. I hate being, you know, just cowering back. I want to go strong and go loud, and I want to. I want to, you know, be out there and, you know, and start to say things like, yeah, and so praise. [00:22:45] Speaker B: God on that part. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Well, yeah, praise God for that. But then maybe they're starting to say things like, you know what? We should establish Christianity as the official religion of the nation, and we should, you know, put heretics in jail and, you know, and have a Christian prince and, you know, stuff like that, you know. No, no, I. I understand the motivation that you started with. You ended up in a. In a place that's. That's not the place to be, but you started in the. You know, so you got to have love and grace for that person. [00:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Or you got people in your life that are. You can think of names that are on the other side that are saying, yeah, we should just let the government do their thing and we should Just, you know, be Christians. [00:23:20] Speaker B: And pluralism. Like pluralism. Good. And. [00:23:23] Speaker A: Sure, yeah, yeah. The, the, the retreat mode. And so, you know, and you could be really angry at that person and say, why are you being so cowardly? [00:23:31] Speaker B: I am angry. Yeah. [00:23:32] Speaker A: And that's our tendency. Right. Is to be angry at the, the cowardly who are trying to, you know, make Christianity a private matter, not involved in our public conversation. And that's, that's bad. And so, but we gotta have grace for the. I'm preaching to myself. Right. We gotta have grace for those brothers and sisters that, you know, they need to change their perspective. [00:23:48] Speaker B: And maybe what they're trying to uphold is kindness. [00:23:52] Speaker A: Sure. [00:23:52] Speaker B: It's like, yes, praise God for that. And so you want to be able to affirm what's good. We should be kind, we should be strong, but then push back against what's not good. And especially with brothers and sisters, we can do this with grace. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah. This is actually a moment where I feel like it might be actually helpful for, if you're listening to this, to hear, actually. So we try not to get too deep into some of these, you know, names and articles and stuff, but Kevin DeYoung wrote an article recently, Six Questions for Christian Nationalists. I actually think these questions are worth. [00:24:23] Speaker B: They were good questions. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah, they're really good questions. So if this is something that you're thinking about right now and thinking, you know, where do I fall in this whole thing? He asked six questions here. I'll just read them real quickly. Number one, do you unequivocally renounce anti Semitism, racism, and Nazism? Quite a question. [00:24:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:41] Speaker A: The answer should be yes. So great question. Yes. We could talk about so much. I'll keep going. Second question. When and how does the nation act as a corporate moral person? That's a very deep question. Something I've been thinking about a lot since he asked the question. I think it's really important, you know, how do we think, you know, in the Bible, you've got the prophets and you've got Jesus calling out nations. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:02] Speaker A: For their sin. What does that mean? [00:25:04] Speaker B: And calling them to repent. [00:25:05] Speaker A: And calling them to repent. What does that mean? Is he, you know, does that mean that the nation, you know, is a moral agent? Does it. Is it mean that their, their king is the moral agent? Does it mean that the majority of their people is the moral agent? What does that even mean? That's a, that's a big. [00:25:19] Speaker B: And here's an example. I think a lot of people would go like, yes, our listeners at least is like, it would be awesome if our government leaders came out and said, like, guys, we're. This is random, like, sporadic, but a national day of prayer right now. Like, tomorrow, let's fast and pray. It's like. And let's pray to Jesus. It's like. That'd be awesome. I love that. Yeah, yeah. [00:25:44] Speaker A: Or national repentance for abortion. You know, just say, hey, we repent of this horrible thing that we've been doing. That would be awesome for the last 50 years. Yeah, that. Yeah. Third question he asks, what is the purpose of civil government? And so that's a question that we've gotten into in that class that I had the chance to teach. We could talk more about it here. We. We've talked about it on and off a little bit. But what is the purpose of. Of government? Fourth question. What does it mean for the civil magistrate? That's the. Basically the government to promote true religion. Some people are, you know, advocating for that. What does that mean? Number five, was the First Amendment a mistake? We've already said no, it wasn't a mistake. Question number six. What is the historical example of the political order you would like to see in America? And this is where I think a big dividing line is among people in this conversation. So, like, I would say the historical example of the political order I want to go to is the American founding. That's what. That's what I would like us to get back. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. [00:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah. There are some saying, forget that, you know, the American founding there. So there are some. [00:26:44] Speaker B: We've lost our way so much. It's done. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Yeah. They're saying, we want to go back further to medieval Europe and the. Yeah. Whereas I'm saying, no, no, the American founding. That's the. That's the period that I think. I'm not saying it was perfect, but that's the period that I think we want to get back to. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I would agree. I think both, actually. I think that we got to go somewhere else than the American founding or to your software, hardware kind of processing, operating system analogy of, like, there's those that say, like, it's. We've. There's been too much change to our fundamentals. We can't go back. It's over. We gotta revolutionize. And it's like, I. I don't think we're there. I don't think we're there. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:19] Speaker B: I do love American principles and values of liberty and rooting our freedoms and rights in a Divine source, Almighty God. The Constitution says, like, there's. There's a sense in which we. This is a Douglas Murray quote. But he said, man, we have so many people criticizing our ancestors, but we don't bother to read them. And I think that you can have the opinion that secularism is what they try to do, but it's not right. Freedom, you realize it's not right. There's something. There's so many beautiful things about that's. And that's what I. I think when I see a Christian wave an American flag is like, there is something great as what the American experiment is. And I do think the more I dig into American history, the more patriotic I want to be. [00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:15] Speaker B: And we're not. We have gone different direction. There's ways that we've grown closer to Christ. We started putting in God We Trust on our coins not too long ago. But then in other ways. Yeah. And then in some ways, it's like, oh, my gosh, what are we doing with abortion? Or with the sexual ethic that seems to be pushed in government schools and things? It's like, what are we. We are losing our way. And that all goes back to what we said at the start of last episode. [00:28:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:42] Speaker B: It's like we're on the cusp of a lot of change. Right. And that's why conversations like this are important. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:48] Speaker B: And we can. We can carry ourselves with grace and ask these questions, right? Yeah. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:53] Speaker B: So we should carry ourselves with grace and we should ask these questions. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's. There's a way. And I think this is kind of what we had at the American founding of getting back to. We had the establishment clause in the First Amendment, which didn't allow for a, you know, A federal. A federal church, but we recognized Christian truth, Christian principles as the founding, you know, ideas behind our. Our law, our form of government, that kind of thing. I think there's a. There's a way to do that. I think that's what we had at the American founding. That's what I'd love to see us do. Be able to embrace that truth as a foundational truth for us. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Without establishing a national church. [00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's so. To your point earlier, it's so interesting how the men who said we can't have a national church were fine with state churches. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Sure. [00:29:44] Speaker B: It's like that's. That seems like something that's inconsistent. Inconsistent to, like, the modern, you know, way of thinking, and yet they didn't think it was inconsistent Right. So why did they not think it was inconsistent? [00:29:56] Speaker A: Well, I think it's so fascinating. Yeah. I think it aligned with their principles of checks and balances, separations of power. [00:30:02] Speaker B: You know, state government is. It matters. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Right, Right. Government versus federal government. I think it. I think it aligned with the overall project, which, again, I said was, you know, has reformed Protestant Christian underpinnings of trying to limit the effects of sin. [00:30:19] Speaker B: And so here, this maybe is getting. I'm about to throw. I'm trying to take us somewhere interesting, but you might think I'm pushing you into the weeds, but. So you'd say it is okay for a government to give certain privileges to those of Christian worldview, Christian faith? [00:30:37] Speaker A: I think it's. It only makes sense, even if only from a historical point of view, to recognize that Western civilization is built on Christian truth. [00:30:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:51] Speaker A: You just, you just can't argue with that. [00:30:53] Speaker B: And there's people that will push back on that and be like, you're a Christian nationalist. It's like, no, we're just. [00:30:57] Speaker A: Well, that's where I say, you know, fine. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker A: I'm not the one calling myself that. Others might call me that, or they're. [00:31:03] Speaker B: So, like, you're unjustly privileging certain people. And it's like, I think your, your point is to say it. Not all cultures are equal. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Not all values are equal. [00:31:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Not all worldviews are the same. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:19] Speaker B: We want truth, and we want our church to support, uphold, preach truth. We want our government to uphold, protect. [00:31:25] Speaker A: I, I said that once. The culture thing. I said that once. I said, you know, there's, there's. It's a very popular conversation to talk about a toxic culture in your workplace. But what that tells me is that we all know that there is a good and a bad culture. There are some cultures that are better than others. So. [00:31:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:31:39] Speaker A: You know, so it's, it's funny that we can. There, you know, we can talk endlessly about good and bad culture in the workplace, but as soon as you start talking about one culture being better than another at a, At a different. At a higher level, at a larger scale, then it becomes taboo. [00:31:54] Speaker B: We don't want heretics, religious or political heretics to be punished unjustly. Right. But there are bad ideas, and we don't want people to believe them, and we want people to believe good ideas. [00:32:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's a whole. So this is, this is a thing where we have to sort of. I didn't, I didn't want this episode to get this far into this. Because I think this becomes, you know, this is more like a class than an episode. Yeah, right, right. But, you know, we could talk about, within Reformed theology, Kyperianism, again, this is one of those words that, you know, not every. Remember that. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:28] Speaker A: Or you could talk about two kingdoms theology. But anyways, there's these, you know, these different perspectives on political theology, which is, you know, what we've been talking about. We could talk about how in each of those there is perspectives on. Even though we believe, you know, Christian truth is the truth and is going to create the best sort of culture and laws and all those kind of things, we also believe that there is a distinct role that God has given to the church as opposed to the, the civil government. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yes. Yep. [00:32:54] Speaker A: So. [00:32:55] Speaker B: And what do you call that? [00:32:57] Speaker A: Christianity. [00:33:00] Speaker B: That's a good. I like that. That's in that. That's what we're trying to. I do think maybe this is good landing the plane. It's like what we do want to avoid is making an idol out of political engagement. Yeah. And so I do think it's wise for us to double down on. We want to be Christians and. [00:33:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. Actually, this is the best place for us to bring it back around full circle. Christians, for all of the history of Christianity have been wrestling with this. How do I be a disciple of Jesus in a earthly kingdom? [00:33:28] Speaker B: And what's unique about us is I don't think Christians have ever. The average individual Christian has never had such political power. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Bingo. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So when we look back at the New Testament letters, we look at the church in Rome, a lot of people are quick to say, you know, in the first century, the Apostle Paul wasn't advocating for policy change in Rome. Well, part of the answer is he had no shot at doing that. He was just, you know, he's just out there sharing the gospel. You today, you get to, you every year, you get to vote on something. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:57] Speaker A: You know, what a, What a difference. That's. That's just a difference. [00:34:00] Speaker B: And beyond that, we're actually saying. We're not saying that's where it stops. We're saying that's where it starts. We should be involved in wanting truth to be upheld. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:08] Speaker B: In, across, in all ways. And I think what's interesting about Paul is he didn't have the ability to vote. But what's so fascinating, and maybe this is where we close, but in Acts, there's, in Ephesus, a giant riot. It's. It's crazy. Paul's wanting to go in there and they're like, no, they're going to kill you. You're not allowed to go. Like, we're not letting you go in. He's like, there's Christians that are getting unjustly, you know, oppressed in there, you know, slandered, and I want to go in. And his friends are saying, no, don't go in. His Christian friends are saying, no, don't go in. And his pagan friends, who are government officials, are saying, no, don't go in. So Paul had influence, and he wanted that influence to be leveraged for the sake of the gospel. [00:34:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:55] Speaker B: And that included trying to influence policymakers. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, Logan, thanks so much for the great conversation on this important topic. How do Christians relate to their nation and to politics and all that kind of stuff. Stuff. [00:35:08] Speaker B: Well, thanks for all that you've written on it, too. [00:35:09] Speaker A: That's really helpful. Yeah. I'm excited to provide a resource that hopefully helps people get to apply the Bible to life. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Including public life. So, hey, thanks, everybody for your time. Hope you have an awesome week. Sa.