[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome to that's a Good Question, a podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language.
If you or someone you know has questions, please submit them to roundthetable.co questions.
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to that's a Good Question. My name is Ryan Kimmel. I'm the lead pastor at Peace Church, and I'm here with Shannon Popkin, author, amazing speaker, ministry leader, mom, wife. What else do you want to add?
[00:00:39] Speaker B: A great fan of Peace Church.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Oh, awesome. I am, too, actually.
So we're here.
I wanted to take a moment and have a conversation with you, hear a little bit about you, your story, what God's doing in and through you. But then also I want to take time talking about your most recent book, kind of judgy, Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories from the Bible.
It's a great book. I highly recommend it, and I want to get into it. But before we do that, thought we'd just take a moment. And for those who aren't familiar with you, do you mind sharing a little bit about you and your story?
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Sure, absolutely.
My parents weren't following Jesus closely when I was born. And so when I was about two, they started looking for a church. They were convicted and started looking. And so as they were getting involved in this church and reading me my little Bible stories, that was the first time they were encountering. Encountering them, too.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: And do you mind sharing where you're originally from?
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Grand Rapids. So, yeah, so it was a church called Calvary Baptist, and it was, like, just a really exciting time. A lot of people coming to Faith, a lot of young people, young couples like my parents. And I just remember growing up thinking church was the best. I loved being there. I loved.
I loved Jesus. I came to faith at age 4, you know, just hearing a story in Sunday school about this guy named Nicodemus who didn't want to die. And I didn't want to die either. And so I told my mom, you know, like, Jesus said, we can have eternal life. And she thought I was too young, and I begged her. And so she, you know, let me ask the Lord to be my savior. And I really do think that was a time, you know, it was very genuine. I was responding in faith. And at a young age, I was very passionate about telling people about Jesus. My mom remembers me, like, gathering the neighbor kids, and I would stand on the porch and, like, preach, but I was telling them about hell, judgment, and she was like, okay. You know, my sister was crying. It was not good. I needed a little, you know, coaching there, but yeah, I think at a young age, the Lord just really gripped my heart with his story and I'm so thankful.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Awesome. Awesome. So tell us, share a little bit more. Share a little bit right now about what ministry are you a part of? What are you doing? How are you using your voice?
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So I am an author. This is book number six for me. I love writing. I'm a speaker. I've gotten to speak here at Peace Church where you're the pastor.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: You're very loved here.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Thank you. I. I loved doing the Christmas event this time. And I am a podcast host. I host the Live Like It's True podcast where we look at stories of the Bible and talk about how we can live like those stories are true. Stories are my jam. I love narratives. All of my books are kind of rooted in story and. Yeah. And I'm. I'm involved too, in smaller ways in my local church. And I'm a. My husband and I lead a small group at our church and ladies Bible study, so life is full. My kids are young adults. They don't need me as much anymore.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: But yeah, I'm slowly getting to that state. I have one that's in college, so. Yeah, yeah, I feel your pain.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Yep, exactly.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So kind of Judgy is your most recent book. Again, the subtitle is Finding Mercy for Myself and Others and Six Stories from the Bible.
It is a great book. Again, I highly recommend it. Let me ask you why. Why did you write this book? There's so many. You said this is your sixth book.
What's the inspiration behind this one?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Well, it is a judgy world that we live in right now. You know, we're so polarized. We're so quick to judge. We're so, you know, we've got our megaphones right. Judging one another.
And I think there's this. This thing between the world and the church, right? Where we're. We're saying, you know, you are wrong. The world is saying you are judging. And I sense in my heart there. There is some truth to that. Even though I want to hold fast, I'm. I'm have very strong convictions. And always, you know, that's more my bent.
But I do think that we struggle with our attitudes of condescending superiority when we're judging, both inside the church and outside the church. And I am the chief of sinners in this. I see this problem in myself. I'm very quick, you know, without the Lord's help, I am very quick to judge. I can, you know, hold court in my head and I just so intensely, like, list out all the ways I am right and they're wrong. And that's just in me. And so the Lord has, from, you know, an early age been rooting out this pride. I mean, it's been there, it's just who I am.
And so I've, I've seen him show me over and over that I am the Pharisee, that I am the one with the figure of swallow. It is, it is so hard.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: It's the age old statement that we judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Exactly. It is, it is so true. But I wanted to write this book for the church, you know, but also for me. And I really man God, I, I don't think that I can say he worked so intensely in my heart in any other book that I've written than this one. Yeah, I just, I mean it just gutted me and I'm, I'm so thankful. But it was, it was a hard book to keep looking, seeing myself in the mirror.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: Well, I mean, your subtitle says Finding Mercy for Myself. And because it's realizing that we are, we can be very judgmental Christians can be. And as you noted, it's like, well, we know the truth too, so we know the standard. But unfortunately, like Jonah oftentimes you write, at one point, Jonah had, Jonah had the right theology, but he did it all wrong.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: And I just feel like that is so true of, I know of myself, and I say this in love for the church, but so many in the church as well.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: And so there was a number of things that stood out for me in this book. And if there's things that jump out to you that you want to revisit, definitely share that. But I first want to say I love, I love how biblical this is. It is couched in biblical stories. And yet you give such so many real life examples and real life stories. I was saying before we started recording that, I don't know if I know another book that does such a great blend of being deeply biblical, but also so real life.
And I think sometimes books can err on one side.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: But I thought this was a really great, really great examination of biblical stories, but also bringing real life. And so especially if you're watching this or listening to this and you love books that really dig into the Bible, you're going to love this book. But if you also love books that just bring out real life stories, you're going to love this book. It's going to be both for you.
So one of the things that you say early on that I'm a highlighter. So, you know, I like that if you go through my library and you want to know which books I've read, open them up and look for the ones that have been highlighted.
So I have tons of highlights. But one of the first things I highlight is you wrote on page 36, God never meant for us to know right and wrong apart from walking with Him.
Obviously that is implicit from the scriptures, but it doesn't explicitly, necessarily.
We're not quoting a verse here.
So just share a little bit on being able to summarize what you have been feeling in your heart into that one sentence. Unpack that a bit.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, when we're talking about judging, we're talking about right from wrong.
So we're talking about the lines that God has drawn between right and wrong. And if you look at the story in the Garden of Eden, there's this tree called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And so apparently God wanted to keep that off limits from us like that. He didn't want us to eat the fruit apart from him.
He wanted us to take these long walks with him in the garden and learn right from wrong, learn the distinction between good and evil. And Eve wanted to skip the walks and just pick up the fruit and have that for herself. And I think there's something in us that we all like, all of us, we want, apart from God, to be able to figure out right from wrong for ourselves. We want to play God right. And so part of our redemption story is returning back to letting God decide right from wrong just. Just like he intended in that Garden of Eden, letting him determine right from wrong. And how do we. But how do we do it? Well, partly in the Bible. Right. The Bible gives us. It's like, sort of like restoring our vision. It's like giving us a new lens to understand right from wrong. Because apart from the Lord, I mean, the Bible talks about us as blind. You know, we're just blind in our sin. We look at evil and call it good. We look at good and call it evil.
And that's part of what's going on with our megaphones of like, you are wrong. Like we're saying, like the Bible says you are wrong. Yeah, but I think there's this danger of trying to get that truth apart from the Lord again, even in His Word, which, that's the Pharisees problem is they knew their scriptures.
They knew more than Anybody right from wrong. But then they looked up from the Bible, they looked at Jesus and they didn't recognize him, so they got it so wrong. And really it's a means to an end.
The stop is not at the Bible, it's to lead us to Jesus, who wants to take these long walks with us and who wants to show us what Israel right and what is wrong. And so, yeah, we were never designed to have our. I think, and I think still even in the hearts of believers, we, we gravitate, don't we, to our lists.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: Oh yeah, totally.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Like, just, please just tell me, Jesus, just tell me, is this movie right or wrong? Is it good to homeschool or public school? Is it good? Please just give us the list. Yeah, I would like the list. I would prefer that over you leading me on these long walks.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: It is, it is. That's where I think a lot of people, they want to treat the Bible like that.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: And an answer book when it's a story, because God works through stories. Jesus told parables and that's where the beauty of faith is found. That's where the relationship with God is found. He's not just the answer giver, he is the answer. And so speaking of Jesus, I thought one thing that was really great in the book is you recognize that scripture definitely reveals Jesus as the judge. He's the final judge.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Well, there's a verse in John, I believe, that says that the Father has given all judgment to the Son. So he is the judge, he's the who. Right.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: And doesn't our world want to say Jesus is the one that doesn't?
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: And so, but on the flip side, though, you also mentioned on page 47 that Jesus has become our ultimate judge free zone. And so there's this notion of there's incredible safety in the company of Jesus when you have faith in him. But he's also the one who sits on the throne of judgment as well. So can you just for those who may be unsure how to, how to wrestle with that tension, how would you explain that?
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think often we kind of split the Bible into two parts, which there are two testaments, you know, and we look at the Old Testament as, that's where we meet this judge who's harsh, he's angry. There's the flood, there's Sodom and Gomorrah.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: And then the New Testament, that's where we meet Jesus, who's merciful. And yet what I see, and particularly as I was studying for this book, I saw judgment and mercy Flowing through the whole thing.
And so in the Old Testament, we have judgment and mercy. In the New Testament, we have judgment and mercy. And Jesus, the whole thing, it's from him and for him and to, like, the whole thing centers on Jesus. And so if we're, you know, this judgment free zone that he creates. I think I was talking about that in the. The context of the story of the flood because, like, what's so interesting about the flood story is, yes, it's the story of judgment. And yet what rises, the rising action in the story is the ark. So don't just see the flood and miss the ark. And the ark is what moves the story forward.
And then there's this. It caps off with this rainbow.
But, you know, think about a rainbow. A rainbow, like if it's. It's the word for a bow. So which way would the arrows fly?
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Yeah, upward.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Up.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: So that is. That's the picture of the rainbow, is there's not gonna be any more judgment on this earth, like in the form of a flood.
The judgment is pointed at the sun. And he is the only one who can create this judgment free zone. He died in our place.
And we'll either stand before him as our judge or as the one who, because of his great mercy, has taken the judgment in our place. That's. That's really the two options.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: The gospel is so beautiful.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: It is. It's so good.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: I often say, like, if people really understood the gospel, who wouldn't want it? You know, if you really understood what Christ has come and done.
It's, It's. It is.
There's a reason we call it the greatest story ever told.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Because it is the greatest story that's ever been told.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: It is.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: So speaking of.
Because you hit a number of awesome Bible stories. In the one part where you're speaking of. It's in the story of Rahab. Speaking of Jericho, here's something you pose, you rightly say about people. We ask, how could God order the execution of a city full of innocent people? Because he brings judgment on Jericho. But then you say, before we want to answer that question, you said, notice how I've spun the gavel around and placed it in my own hands.
And the notion of the gavel, like, obviously the judge's gavel is a image you come back to throughout the book, because the person who's judging is obviously the person who's holding the gavel. And we want to hold the gavel, but we have to let God hold it.
And that story in Particular, it was interesting when I opened up the book and I looked at the chapter references, knew the idea of the book. The one about Rahab is the one for me that was like, I wonder where she's going to go with this. And going in there. And speaking of the, you know, obviously going into Jericho and what, what happens.
Let me just ask you a question here about that.
The notion of, notice how I've spun the gavel around and placed it in my own hands.
I think that is an incredibly profound thing that people need to recognize.
We want to see justice in the world, but whose justice do we want to see and whose standard of justice we want to see? And I think what ends up happening is people are judgy because they don't realize you've made yourself the judge, as in, you are the one holding the gavel. So tell me a little bit about the inspiration behind the gavel. Obviously it's connected to the imagery of a judge in a courtroom. But why do you think that is such powerful imagery for people in terms of.
You kept coming back to it, which I think is so important throughout the story of the book. So share with me. Share with people listening.
How do we recognize when we've. When we're actually holding the gavel?
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the gavel has to do with authority. Right? It's the only. The judge holds the gavel in the courtroom. There's only one person who gets to decide. And that person should have a good, clear understanding of right from wrong. They should understand the law. They should have all the evidence in front of them, and they should have the authority. And some of us assume we have all three of those. You know, we assume that we have the, you know, we understand right from wrong. And sometimes we think we understand it better than God.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Right, Right, totally.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: And. And then we. We think we have all the information. You know, we think we understand all that's in other people's hearts, you know, their motives. We think we can see, whereas only God can truly see that. And then we also think that we have the authority to judge other people, to judge ourselves so harshly, but also to judge God. I mean, like the story of the flood. I think I wanted to start with that story. I mean, I didn't. I didn't. Because it's such a hard story.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Oh, it's hard. I mean, it's maybe aside. If you understood what happened on the cross, aside from the cross, the story of the flood is the most troubling for people.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: It is so hard. And I think most people look at God and think, how can he. You know, he's. This is too much, right? And so. But there again, we've spun the gavel and put it in our own hands. Like, who are we to judge God? And what I love about the flood story is it starts with God's perspective on humanity. It says that God looked and saw that darkness was spreading, and it had spread so far that there's only one righteous man still standing.
That's how far that. And I think that also Ryan speaks to God's mercy because he let it go that far before he responded to the flood. And so with that story, I wanted to deal with how we see God, you know, and, you know, are we right to judge him? But then with the Rahab story, I wanted to talk about how God sees us. And so I think, you know, it makes sense to me that people who don't know God and who don't know this story would think he's really harsh by wiping out, like, the city. That's a story of his people going to wipe out Jericho and claim this territory as their own for. No, I mean, there's. There's. They haven't been attacked by Jericho, but God has been attacked by all of that's happening in Canaan. I mean, these are very deeply sinful people.
And so I think it's. It's so understandable that the world would look at God who can just wipe out a city of people and think that doesn't seem right, the world. We bristle at the idea of the Lord being the ruler over heaven and earth. But here's what God finds remarkable when he looks into the city of Jericho filled with people who are defying him. They're boarding up their city. He sees one who truly believes he is the Lord of heaven and earth. And that's Rahab. That's what she says. So how does he see her?
Her and her surrender to him and he goes after her. Like, that's. I mean, and that can be a world full of people defying God. His eyes are searching for the one who's willing to say, yes, you are the Lord over heaven and earth. You are the judge. I defer to you. And what I love about the story of Rahab is like, it's basically a rescue mission, you know, So, I mean, they thought these two spies thought they were on a reconnaissance mission, actually. I mean, they don't get any intel that they helpful. You know, it's like, circle the city seven times, the walls full. So they didn't go in there and get any good intel. What they did. They went in there and they got the one woman, the one turncoat in all of Jericho who's like, can I switch sides? And God's like, yes, please, I will rescue out of that. That's how God sees.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah. You make mention of this in the book, that as far as the story arc goes, the Rahab story is not essential to the outcome of Jericho.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Scoop it all out.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: And the story is not dependent exactly, but yet it shows God's heart for those who have a heart for him and for the outsider as well. And it's such a great. I love how you interplayed with the story of Rahab. It's a great story. It's so underappreciated when people study the Bible. There's a line on page 59 that, for me, just really encapsulates a great, great way to understand what we do when we judge. You say judging alienates. It builds walls using gavels. You know, we often think about building walls using hammers, right?
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: But you use the notion of the gavels build walls between people. It alienates people from us and us from others when we're judgmental.
How do you.
How would you counsel someone who doesn't realize that they're doing that?
[00:19:45] Speaker B: I mean, there's such a blindness of the judgy finger. You know, the finger of judgment is always pointing down from this. This elevated position of superiority, and it's. It's pointing away, too. You know, there's this contempt in our hearts when we're saying, I never have, I never would, I never could.
And that. It does. It builds these walls with our gavels. You know, Was that in the chapter about Jonah or.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: I think that was in the. I think that was still in the chapter of rehab.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, there's this. This pride behind. And it's. It's actually the pride.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: That, you know, creates the division. And when we look at the Pharisees, like, we see that over and over.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: Yeah. What blinds us? Like, pride.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Right? It's their pride. And they think they are right. They are so committed to it. They're so. They're committed enough to kill Jesus. That's how sure they are that they are right. And look at the pride behind all of the divisiveness.
In the chapter where I talked about the blind man, I talked about these markers of. Of blindness, these markers of blind pride.
And so, like, one of them is that assuming that we. We know things, you know, like, we don't know people's hearts, but they were like, we know he's a sinner. We, you know, how do they actually know? And then there's. Yeah, right. And then there's like this.
These territorial. Like, we see that in church. You know, you do a lot of church ministry, right? Don't we see, like, all of the territorial how that. How that, you know, just with our hammers, we're building these walls of pride dividing people.
And that was the. The Pharisees were responding like, you're on our turf. You know, I mean, they're Jesus. Like, you're not gonna be on the same side as Jesus. Right.
But also, like the, the condescending of, like, you know, who are. You're teaching us. They're saying to this blind man, and, And I mean, humility is what, you know, it mends those. Those broken relationships. It breaks down the walls. And so I think this book, you know, we're talking about judging, but really the undertone is all about pride and humility. Judging is always fueled by pride, and humility is always what is. Is the right response. I think if we're going to get judging wrong and there are times that we should judge, you know, you would say that. Yeah, right. There are times we should judge right from wrong. But if we're going to get it wrong, it'll be either like we're. We're judging superficially or we're judging hypocritically, or we're judging, you know, assuming we know things. If we're going to get it wrong, it'. When we have. We're fueled by pride.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You had said you gave a story. And for those who are listening, I'm not going to give away all the good stuff. You get to read it. But there was one story in particular that really, really hit me, and it was the deal with the mother who does foster care, which is connected to my heart because my wife and I have adopted. And at one point, you mentioned this woman has fostered a number of children. But. But there was one child that had really had some health issues, primarily because this baby had suffered the shaken baby syndrome.
And it's infuriating to see when people hurt and harm children. And I think there's something that really offends our hearts when it's a mother to her own child.
And you'd ask this woman, do you judge the mother for what she did to her own child?
And the woman said, she doesn't. And she said, I put myself in her position and then just took a Humble, sober assessment of her life and how she had had so much resources growing up and as a mom and recognized that this woman didn't. This woman lived in constant frustration, and it boiled over into a terrible moment that lost her the custody of her child and placed her in custody. And.
And you kind of summarize. You summarize it by saying, contempt hovers at a distance. Compassion stands close, even if just in spirit.
And I think that's such a great challenge for people, because when you judge, you stand above, you stand at a distance, you point. But compassion gets with people at their level. And suddenly when that happens and you really hit this so well in the book about judging, it removes the humanity from people so often. And what compassion does is when you are with someone at their level, the humanity is restored. You see the humanity in them, and then suddenly you realize you're not all that better, or you may not have done things all that differently if you were in their shoes. And that was a story that really, really touched my soul, especially again, because my wife and I have adopted.
And there's another part in the book, and I think this is probably my favorite line in the entire book because I loved it and was deeply challenged by.
Was one of those moments I read the line and I said something out loud. I was like, oh, man, it just hit me.
It's on page 64. Don't even include that or not. But you wrote, don't judge based on what seems likely, but rather by what God says is possible.
And that just was so challenging to me, especially as my kids are getting older now and they're developing friends. And, you know, you mentioned in the book a few times we sometimes get guarded on who we want our kids to be friends with because we don't know where those friendships could possibly lead.
But the notion of don't judge based on what seems likely, but rather what God says is possible. For me, the challenge there was, yeah, there may be a person with a history, but God's got a future for them. And maybe you're part of that future.
That was so, so good and so rich for me that. That just made me thought about a number of relationships that I have in my life and whether or not, you know, those are things that we should continue to develop or not. It was a great, great, great line. Great challenge for me.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that. That part where we, like, dehumanize our enemies, you know. Yeah, that was.
And I didn't come up with that idea. Those ideas, that's. That's rooted in the the story in the text. Because when Jonah is like, at this distance judging Nineveh, like, wanting to see the hellfire and brimstone, he stands apart in contempt for the Ninevites. And God keeps asking him, are you right? Are you right? Like, is your anger really right? And right is all about right. It's. That's judgment is right and wrong.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Jonah is so convinced he's right. And God responds at the very end of the book saying, is it not for me to show compassion on these humans? And he uses this word. It's not the normal word you would use like these people of Nineveh. He uses like the humans of Nineveh. So in other words, he's like, you know, that group includes you, Jonah. You know, he's humanizing his enemy. He's putting Jonah and the Ninevites together in the same fallen human race. And the only difference between Jonah and these people is that Jonah has had God's mercy poured into his life. He knows God. He's a part of a community where he's grown up knowing about God. And so is it really right for us to show contempt in the way that I was so gripped also by that mom who's like, I mean, apart from the ways that God has poured his mercy and grace into my life, I'm gonna be just like this mom, this young mom is alone in the world. She doesn't have anybody to lean on. And my friend was like, even with all this support, I find parenting frustrating.
So take all of that away. And so I think if we compassion is seeing ourselves among the other sinners, contempt is removing ourselves from the sinners. And so it's like, I think it grows our compassion when we see ourselves among other sinners. Right?
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So as you wrote this book, what was the hardest part for this book? What was the hardest part of writing this book for you?
[00:27:38] Speaker B: I think I mentioned earlier, it just really gutted me.
I was aware that I was kind of judgy, but as I wrote, I was like, oh, this is me too. And this, this and this.
Particularly when I revisited some. Like I wrote about my relationship with my mother in law.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Which was pretty, you know, pretty tense. And it was.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: And that was really raw. It was really raw.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: Yeah. But I had always, like, just kind of summarized that as like, well, she's a very difficult person. And I did, I did my best, you know, I did it. I did it all right. All with my nose slightly tipped off. You know, like I would do. I would have all these meals I would do. And so to go back and revisit like what would it feel like? Because as I was writing the book, I was gaining a daughter in law and we have a really sweet relationship. But I was thinking, like, what would it be like to have someone cooking me all these nice meals and giving me gifts and doing holiday celebrations, all with like this contempt brewing in her heart? What would that be like? And I, you know, I don't know. My mother in law's with Jesus now, but I think it was, it was really humbling and really good for me to go back and visit. Like, I think it was, I think it was the contempt in my heart that, that played a role in this relationship.
And so that is just one. I mean I literally lost sleep over this book and spent so many nights in tears just really agonizing over the. How I am so like the Pharisees. You know, I am so like Judge Jonah. I am so like, you know, even the thief on the cross, like assuming I know things and making judgments and so. But I think what really stirred me was the mercy of Jesus and how that just melts our hearts. It melts the pride like to go back and put myself in that scene at the cross and see the mercy of Jesus. For me, right?
That's really what, that's what melts our hearts and makes us more mindful of how we should see ourselves, how we should see other people and how we should see the Lord.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. So what's on the horizon? What's next? What are you doing now?
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Well, I'm. I'm working on another companion journal for an earlier book that I wrote. We're doing a re release of Control Girl.
Surrendering your burden of control. Lessons on surrendering your burden of control from seven women in the Bible. So I'm, I get to do, you know, know we don't often get to like re. Re edit our stuff, you know, like go back and like wait. There's some things I could say better. So I'm getting to work on that. We're going to release that this coming year and I'm, I'm busy speaking. I'm doing a lot of like international traveling to. My books are all in Spanish so that on the horizon. So I'm excited.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Busy fall coming up.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Sweet. So, so excited for you. Once again. How can people find you online?
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. Well, my podcast is part of Round the Table.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So you can find it there.
And my books and other resources
[email protected] if you want to try it, we have a judgy quiz that you can take and I have a free heart check that'll ask you a bunch of questions with Bible verses.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Oh, sweet. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again. The book is kind of judgy. Finding mercy for myself and others in Six Stories from the Bible. It's a great book. I think it's a timely book. I think it's both timely and timeless. I think the truths here are something we need to hear now, but I know it's something that humanity is going to continue to do need to hear because as you said, these are stories that come from the Bible that are thousands of years old.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: It's true.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: And it's something people dealt with then, and we're still dealing with. And we will, unfortunately, probably until Jesus comes back. But. So, Shannon, thank you so much for everything you're doing. Thanks for writing this book. Thanks for being here to you and your ministry.
[00:31:24] Speaker C: Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone today. You can follow. That's Good Question and and find more episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. That's Good Question is brought to you by Round the Table, a ministry of Peace Church in Meadowville, Michigan.
