Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome to that's a Good Question, a podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language.
If you or someone you know has questions, please submit them to roundthetable. Co Questions?
Hey, welcome to that's A Good Question. I'm John, and today I'm here with my good friend Pat. Pastor Nate.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Hey, brother. Glad to be here.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: And we are going to talk about an important topic going on in the world right now, an important topic for Christians to be able to think about. Look at the Bible, see what it says, and how do we take a biblical worldview as we think about this topic that is much in conversation in the news. And even between now and when people are watching this, I imagine more things will continue to happen. But over the last several months, especially lots of development. So the topic we're talking about today is immigration.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we've been asked, we've done a couple live Q&As, and that's a pretty popular thing in these last couple months, especially with everything going on with ICE Minnesota. Different things in the news.
Not as hot button of an issue now like in this day when we're recording this, but who knows what the next weeks hold, right?
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Right. Yep. It kind of keeps coming back into the news cycle. And so all the more reason. And yeah, like you said, people have been sending in this question, especially at live events we've been doing recently.
And yeah, so all the more reason for us to just unpack it. Think about what are the issues at stake and what does the Bible say to them. So some of the arguments that we're hearing from, and we're going to focus even specifically on arguments being made for a Christian perspective on this. I'm hearing people say things like God commands us to welcome the stranger, therefore.
And then they have a public policy position they think that promotes.
They say in the Old Testament, Israel was told to love the foreigners because they were immigrants in Egypt for a time. Which. Which is true. The Bible does say that. But what are the implications for public policy so we can think about that? I'm hearing people make the argument that Jesus was a refugee, something I've heard a lot of people say. So we'll think about that. Is that true? Is it not? What does that mean?
Jesus commends people in Matthew 25 for welcoming him when he was a stranger.
That's true. But what does that mean? How does that impact a biblical perspective on issues like this one? So that's what we want to unpack, is we want to look at what does the Bible Actually say, and then how does that apply to what we're looking at?
[00:02:33] Speaker B: And apply specific. You referenced it a couple times. But usually the questions we get have something to do with policy. Like how does that apply to how we as Christians, what kind of policies should we support? Because I think there's a general agreement across the board that just interpersonal, you know, if we have a neighbor who is someone who's an immigrant from another country or someone, and even let's say we don't know whether there's a legal status or not, there's a general agreement on showing Christlike love and kindness.
But the question is, the questions that are coming in, it seems like are more, okay, how do I go from reading the Bible to then what does that look like as I vote or as I have conversations with friends and family as I respond to some of these things going on in the news with ice? As we talk, as people talk about immigration law, should we be more open, more closed? What does it mean to have borders? That's. That seems like what people are the most interested in right now.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: How does the Bible inform our policy?
[00:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point in that, yeah, it takes it to a next level because yeah, we, I mean, Jesus summarizes the law, love the Lord your God and love your neighbor.
And so we go, well, yeah, Christians are supposed to love our neighbors. And like you said, regardless of what, you know, whether they're a citizen, not a citizen, you know, whatever, we're supposed to love our neighbors. But then what does that mean for how we treat the border of the country, all that kind of stuff. So, and that's kind of a big question.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: And I could see, I mean, I could see somebody even follow up question of that. Like there are times where policy then does get very personal in of, let's say I found out my next door neighbor who I'm building a great relationship with, they nonchalantly tell me that they're here illegally, they've overstayed a visa or they've, you know, come into the country illegally. What. How do I as a Christian respond to that? Do I have an obligation to inform authorities? Do I have an obligation to hide the person from, you know, there's, there, you could see a lot of people coming to different conclusions on.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, well, people, people very loudly are saying both of those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of people that would say, as a Christian you need to report that to ice. There are other people on the opposite side that would say, as A Christian, you need to help hide them and make sure that ICE doesn't find them. Yeah, there's people saying both of those things. And so we just want to come at it and see what scripture says. Recently, a very prominent Christian leader simply tweeted out, do we call it tweet still? Since it's X now. It's called X now. So he posted on X.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: That sounds however we say. I think that's what we say.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: He posted this verse from Scripture without really any explanation. And so, you know, it's one of those tough things that a lot of people criticized. And you can say, well, I just, I just quoted the Bible. And that's. That's certainly true.
You know, it's one of those things that, you know, we always talk about how important context is when you're reading the Bible. So it's. And then same thing's true in a social media post. Like what?
You quoted a Bible verse. That's awesome.
The Bible is true. It's God's word. What are you trying to. To say? You know, what is the application of the passage? So the passage he posted out was this. Leviticus 19, 33 and 34.
When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself. For you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: So a lot of the initial reaction, I'm not as on social media, but I did see a little bit as this kind of even like, almost went beyond social media to be a debate, even in, like, larger circles. And I know a lot of the questions. So some of the questions from that were, is this Bible verse talking about just a traveler versus a permanent immigrant? Is this verse, does it apply to us in any way today, seeing as it's written for the nation of Israel during a unique time, I've heard people talk about how kind of the. The interesting standpoint of whatever this means, it was pretty radically countercultural in a time where tribalism was so rampant that anyone outside of your immediate circle would be kind of understandably seen as a potential threat or enemy in a place with less locked doors, less formal security safety measures. And so it's prompted a lot of discussion.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
And one of the other things is that it's not the only Bible passage that says something like that. So just real quick, I mean, a couple other ones. Exodus, I'll say some of these references so that if anybody wants to look them up later, they can. I won't read all of them just for the sake of time, but if you want to look up these references later, feel free. But Exodus 22:21 is another passage that says something very similar.
It says, you shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him.
Exodus 23:9 is another one you could look at. Look at Deuteronomy 10, 18, and 19.
Let me, let me scroll through my list here. Malachi 35.
Some people have looked at Matthew 25:35, where he says, I was hungry and you gave me food. This is Jesus speaking. I was thirsty and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you welcomed me. And they hone in on that word stranger.
So those are all passages similar to this that people are looking at. I think, you know, whenever you read the Bible, you want to look at the context immediately surrounding a verse, but then also the greater context of all of Scripture. So just to bring in some of that, let's go back to that first passage that was referenced. So Leviticus 19.
I think the context is really valuable here. So these are the verses immediately following what it said. Says, you shall do no wrong in judgment, in measures of length or weight or quantity. You shall have just balances, just weights. Adjust ifa adjust Hin. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: And.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: And you shall observe all of my statutes and rules.
So contextually, I think it's interesting to see that the whole point being made is that you should be fair and equal in your treatment.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And further context, I was just looking at this and then looking chapter ahead, you have a section about the Lord driving people out of a land that God is giving to the people of Israel, where It says, Leviticus 20:24 says, But I have said to you, you shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess a land flowing with milk and honey. I am the Lord your God, who has separated you from the peoples. And so just thinking of the, even the greater context as we think about what this meant to the original audience, this is even within the context of conquest of Israel into the promised land and pushing people out of the nation they've inherited. So to just, I think coming back to your original point, to just say, hey, this is a verse that directly applies to what's going on in our country today. And we need to just, I think for a lot of people that their frustration with how it was presented. And again, this is an assumption but when you, when you post something publicly without a lot of context, you are opening up to people's assumptions of why you're posting it, what it means, like, why now? Why this?
You know, I think the fair, some of the fair questions people were asking was, are you just. Is this kind of a.
A statement that we should fully accept all illegal immigrants and we shouldn't stand with any law or rule of law that's saying, hey, you can't.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Right. And. Because that's how it's popularly being used, you know, So I think. So the person who posted it is a very intelligent, thoughtful Christian and teacher of the Bible. Appreciate him a ton.
But yeah, a lot of people are simply quoting Leviticus 19 and saying, See, there should be no such thing as border policy, maybe at all. Or, you know, the idea of pursuing people who are here against the law and then deporting them is, Is totally unbiblical. That's, that's the argument being made popularly from that passage. It's this thing when that passage, without any context, you kind of go, it's the Bible. It's God's word, so it's good and it's beautiful. But. But what. What is the application? What are you trying to say? And so that's the thing is, it's not. This is. I think some people want to just say, here's the verse. Perfect. This answers it. This is, you know, it's just this simple.
Or does it say, no, I think you have to dig in a little bit more? And that's, that's commonly the case with the Bible. Right. It's not just don't just post a verse. And there it is, piece of cake. Done. It's like, let's dig into it, understand the context, what's actually going on.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Hey, and you can, you can post it. And then that's what opens up conversation for us.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah, sure.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: I mean, we, we won't make too many assumptions of what the intentions were, but now it's a conversation. So we're here talking about it. We're answering the questions that rise with it.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So when we looked at the immediate context, we kind of see that it's, you know, we're laying out laws and especially talking about equality and fairness across all of your dealings. So I think, you know, the emphasis is on, you know, if you're, if you're doing business, for example, that's one context. Right. If you're doing business with somebody who is a citizen of your country and somebody who is not A citizen of your country, you shouldn't treat them unequally is the point. Right. So you don't, you know, use a different set of scales if you're weighing out the flower that you're selling to them and try to cheat the foreigner. So it's, you know, so it's against racism, it's against tribalism, it's against all those kind of things. You can't say, hey, you're not a native born citizen of this country, so I'm going to, you know, I'm going to treat you poorly in business or morally or whatever like that. I think that's kind of the gist of it and.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. I've never noticed that. Well, you just drew out of the context. But you know, if, if you want to interpret the, the 33, 34 and Leviticus 19 as kind of a counterculturally compassionate viewpoint of how to treat people who are foreigners, strangers to your land. What's very. And if you want to say, hey, this is, this is, this shows a lot of compassion, which I think it does. You're drawing out something that is helpful for me of just saying the next verses are some of the clearest emphasis of how Christians are called to be just people and uphold justice. So already just right there, you're already introducing another category of God would have us be people of compassion. But we're also very just people. And rules and laws are not only not a bad thing, but we're called to observe rules, observe laws, not just put them in place, but actually hold people accountable to them as well.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Well, and those things go together, I think is part of the point too, that justice and compassion go together. So, you know, the first part of the verse says to love the person as yourself. And then the next part of the verse talks about having just fair weights and scales. So, you know, how do you love somebody? Well, well, part of that is just treating them fairly. That's kind of some, some basics. Yeah. So here's some other passages that speak to this topic and I think to me they add some clarity. So here's Leviticus 24, 22. You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the Lord your God. Okay, so here's that emphasis again.
You shall have the same rule, equal, fair, just rules for both the foreign person and for the native person. Okay. You can't treat them differently is the emphasis. Numbers to 16. For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. And a statute is like a law rule. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord. One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you. So again, the emphasis. You should have the same rule.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Law.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Laws are good. Rules are good. Don't treat people differently because they are, you know, a foreigner. Whether that means, you know, ethnically or politically or whatever, whatever that might be, don't treat them differently. And it's talking about the nation of Israel. So I think we're talking about, you know, national borders, people who are different in terms of they're from a different political nation.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Do you think there's a. Is there any modern application of that? When we think of that in this time, there's an aspect of their saying, don't treat people worse for being a foreigner.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: But when we're living in a time where there would be some people who would argue we should treat people who immigrate, even whether legally or even a lot of people that would say illegally, we should treat them better than we do citizens in the sense of they shouldn't have to pay taxes, but they should be able to get.
They should be able to get all the benefits of being a part of this society.
Is there truth to say, hey, some of that fairness applies on both sides. That there's a, like, there's almost a application of some assimilation that's needed if you're going to be a part of a society. You hold to the rules of that society as well.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: That's a great question. So that's. So that's one of the, I think the so interesting sort of mindset worldview things is, you know, I think some people would say, like, like what you're, like what you're bringing up is that, hey, you know, there's fairness, and that's all good and great, but we should, but as Christians, we should actually go beyond. And we should be unfair.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: In a positive way.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: But I think the thing you got to realize that when you.
That's actually kind of a contradiction in terms, because to do that, you are being unfair and you're being unfair to some person, some other person. Right. If you're going to. If I've got, you know, if my kids, if I've got two of my kid, my two sons in front of me, and I say, well, I want to be unfairly kind to the one that's going to usually come at the exclusion of the other. Right. And I Think as parents we find ourselves in those situations sometimes. Right. We were like, wow, this, you know, this kid, I want to help them out. And then they're like, oh, shoot. But this one now is saying that they're being cheated by that decision and they're right, you know, so it's, it's, it's interesting. I think, and I think the Bible is supporting this idea that actually fairness under the law is the best way to be kind to both.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Especially at a government level, a policy level. So, you know, as individual Christians, I'm thinking of. Actually another passage I had on my list was from Deuteronomy, and it talks about us, you know, out of our generosity, giving, you know, maybe food and clothing to those who are in need, especially to those who, you know, are maybe coming from out of country. So can we as individual Christians be super kind and of our own decision, choose to give things to somebody? Absolutely. That's good and that's beautiful. But it's a different thing entirely when you have a law taking things from one person and giving it to another. And I think that's, that's like a, that's like a big picture view on public policy and things like that. But you gotta understand, there's a difference between me of my own choice deciding, hey, as a Christian, I love Jesus and I want to give this gift freely to somebody out of generosity. It's a different thing when a government via law, which really means, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to make this too dramatic, but kind of at the point of a gun, right? I mean, that's, that's, that's, you know, when you, when you put into place a law, you're saying, if you don't do this, we will send you to jail or, you know, whatever the penalty is. So it's a different thing than me freely choosing to give somebody something versus a government saying, you must give up this and I'm going to give it to somebody else.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: Yeah, those are different. Yeah. And I totally understand how those become just kind of mushy in the middle. I, I don't even need to speak for the church at large. I'll just talk for myself. But I personally don't do all that I should do to love my neighbors. And particularly I, I don't, I haven't spent a lot of personal time thinking through how can I step, step up to help people who are in more need, not just in my immediate community, but on a larger scale. I haven't thought about that enough. And that's something that I need to, that I need to be challenged in the. But does that then mean that we should correct that through breaking laws, through like you said, doing things that are unjust from a policy level, from a state level. And that's where I would say, you know, those, those can be two different conversations. You know, my personal challenges that I need and that I, I will. I believe that, you know, Christ is calling me to and will hold me accountable to for the ways that I don't help the people in need personally in my life versus okay, well the government then needs to step in or we need to create policy to make up for where I lack in those areas. I just think as past our bigger focus is challenging ourselves and the people of our congregation to step more in how Christ calls us to live versus to then try to create government policy to make up for some of the ways that we individually lack the compassion that we should walk in every day. Does that make sense?
[00:19:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. That's a great point. So to answer the question then of does the Bible command us to welcome foreigners in the sense of should we treat them as other human beings made in God's image? Yes, absolutely. Should we treat somebody who is foreign as less. Should we, you know, discriminate against them? No, we shouldn't do those things. That's bad.
But does that mean that any kind of border policy or being able to distinguish somebody, hey, you can legally enter the country in this way. It's illegal. If you enter the country in that way, does that mean that those laws are all unbiblical? No, I would not say that that rules out any kind of immigration law in general.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: And people point to Acts 17 highlights Language of God recognizing national borders and even us seeing that those things are appointed by God at times and at seasons to in a sovereign way of leading all of human history. And so God's not anti border.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: That's really clear throughout the scriptures as you just read the Old Testament as, as God interacts with the people of Israel, he recognizes nations as a real thing and, and so he holds them accountable for sin.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: So we're not I think to establish that it's very clear that it's not a wrong or bad thing for Christians to uphold border enforcement. At the same time we obviously are we. I think we need to be pushed in our personal lives to be more compassionate and kind. But in terms of is it unchristian to hold to borders to hold to a nation being distinct and important and even I Think as I read through the scriptures, the idea of calling people to assimilate to a nation into a culture where in our, our modern culture would say that's automatically wrong or bad, that's automatically racist or that's automatically xenophobic to hold any of that position.
There's, there's clarity throughout the Old Testament that as, as God tells the Israel to. How to treat the foreigners, that there's a, there's an understanding of assimilation to Israel's and not just an understanding of it command to it totally.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Well, actually, as you say that, I just scrolled the, you know, another passage that was on my list, which it's longer, so I won't read the whole thing. But if you want to look at it later, Exodus 12, 48 and 49 are the key verses, but read the surrounding stuff too. But it's actually a passage about the Passover and it actually says that foreigners are not supposed to eat of the Passover unless they are circumcised.
So which means that they, you know, be part, become part of the covenant community. So they have to assimilate to God's people, become part of the people before they can partake in the Passover. Yeah, that's just one example of kind of what you're saying.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And it, it's become very popular. I mean especially we're both millennials, so we're not, we're not fully up there generationally in age, but it's become very popular, I think to view any nationalism as a bad thing.
Forgetting that kind of the, some of the opposite of that of a tribalism is that if you don't have the same ethnicity, if you don't have the same place of origin, that you can't, you can't have community together, you can't be a tribe. But kind of some of the beauty of creating nations is it's, it's something that can draw people together who are even very different. But you have to assimilate under kind of that banner of the nation in a way for you to actually have a point of connection. Right?
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so it's interesting that you're saying this. I'm doing a little bit of writing about this right now actually, and trying to unpack because people right now, believe it or not, there is a lot of disagreement about what the meaning of the word nation is.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: And so you know, what, what makes a nation. And so some people are arguing that it's ethnicity, some people are arguing that it's you know, what might be called culture, defined by shared preferences or things like that. So that's a. That's a. That's an interesting conversation, but the bigger. But what. The bigger point that you made, though, is that something has to tie the nation together.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: So.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think there's disagreement about what that is. And I would say that it does not have to be ethnicity or, you know, a physical trade or something like that, but it. At the. It needs to be something.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Which, you know, I would say.
I would argue that the United States is really founded. It's a cultural project founded on a certain set of ideas.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: So like you said, we can be. Americans are people who are very different from each other ethnically and in many different ways.
But to be an American means that you're subscribing to a civilizational project. You're saying, I believe in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights. You know, these are. This is like. This is the direction I want to be a part of and go towards.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: So. Yeah.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't mean to open up a full can of worms there. You get. You're deeper into that whole topics.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: I never thought I'd go so deep, but I've been getting deeper into that.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, to bring it back to the topic at hand, immigration. I mean, we haven't said it yet because for us, it's so.
It's so basic. But it's worth saying that we believe every person is made in the image of God. And so we don't see these distinctions of birthplace or language or ethnicity or even ultimately, what. You know, you just kind of brought up the ideas that you hold to. The ideas we hold to as America or the ideas that other nations, other backgrounds would hold to. We don't see those as such a distinguishing mark that it changes your value as a person. We're totally.
We totally believe that every single person who's made in the image of God, which is every human is. Is equal in value before God as a created being that bears his image. And so we're not talking about that, but sometimes.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: So we're. Yeah, we're firm. There's humanity. There's humans in general. There's humanity, and then there. But then there are the Bible. The Lord does recognize nations that. Yeah. And puts in place leaders, governments that have to protect order through law and stuff like that in those nations.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the extreme is position, and that's what it is to. If any Christian holds to that, to at all Embrace borders or policies about immigration that in any way limit immigration or put any sort of standards on it is inherently unchristian or.
Or completely lacks compassion of any sort. That's just not a biblical idea that doesn't align when you read throughout the Scriptures. And so that's a good place to start.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: We just went like, meta, I think for a minute there some people listening and be like, where did you guys just go? But hey, I think these are all. This is all part of the conversation.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Well, if we bring it. If we bring it back down. So that's. That's one extreme now.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Well, actually, before you Can I. Before you go, there's one other question that one other argument that people made that I feel like I want to address. But you tell me if I'm taking this in the wrong direction, but some people have been saying Jesus was a refugee. I did kind of want to address that real quick. Is that all right? That fit in? All right? So people. Yeah, people will make that argument. They'll say Jesus was a refugee.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: And then they'll make conclusions based upon that. So I want to just address that very quickly. We don't have to dwell on it for forever. But you look at Luke chapter two and the story of. So, you know, Herod is killing babies because he hears about this threat to his power. A king of the Jews, you know, he's looking for Jesus, wants to kill Jesus. And so the Lord leads Joseph and his family to escape to Egypt for a period of time and then come back. And so based on that, that they're saying, well, Jesus was a refugee. But I think an important.
On. On one hand, you could probably say that's true because he is fleeing persecution.
You know, then we could talk about the conclusions or the applications of that. But so there's that. But also he still stayed within, like the Roman Empire. So if you want to compare it to, you know, this like crossing national borders and stuff, you know, I think your argument, the argument people are trying to make from it, I think breaks down.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: And we know, we know that Jesus even in his movement, and some for safety, it seems like some. There's a lot of different prophecies about the Messiah that, that take, you know, ideas that come from different places that Jesus moved around to. But one thing we know for sure, because we. The Bible's really clear that Jesus was without sin was that he didn't break any nation's laws or anything as he moved in, as he moved across borders then. And even we just functionally, that was A very different time. And how they were able to actually enforce laws or even make laws about what that looks like to move from nation to nation. We live at a time now where we can actually put policies, processes in place.
And I heard somebody say once, I was. I was listening to something about the Statue of Liberty, and that's kind of celebrated as a symbol of how our nation was welcomed. So many immigrants and still does to this day. But even a little.
A little marker on the Statue of Liberty with, like, a famous saying on it, talks about coming through the door into America. And that idea of the. The door that can be. Is open at times, at a specific time and place, at times, is closed in certain places or in certain situations. And even our American history, you know, people are looking at, well, look at Jesus was a refugee. The thing I hear kind of of in that same vein, as we're a nation created by refugees, you know, that's more. Less of a biblical immigrants, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. More of a political argument, historical argument. But all of that, there's a lot of context and a lot of nuance and a lot that's different than kind of where the conversation lies today.
[00:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, one of the most basic things we can say about that, like you said the Statue, you know. Yeah, the Statue of Liberty, Ellis Island. Right. You know, these points that people will talk about is like, man, so many people came in through those points. But what we are talking about, I mean, just to be clear, is. Is lawful immigration. And so that's. It is just important to keep that in your mind that, yeah, there are ways to do this, which our country has said, yes, this is the lawful way to enter the other country. And then there are ways to do it that are not lawful ways to enter the country. And I want to be. I also want to be clear. I've said this before, but I can only imagine the pain and difficulty of those who have entered our country illegally. You know, they're. They're coming for a reason. Right. They're coming because they're escaping from something terrible. You know, the situation where they're coming from is, you know, worse than it is here. So I feel so sorry for them and for that situation. And yet also, we are a country that has to maintain order and have laws. And so you can't. You can't break the law.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: That's just kind of.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: And if someone was listening to this and saying, hey, well, it seems like these guys are focusing more on how to prevent illegal immigration than how to welcome and love and care for those who have already done that. I think part of the reason that's our emphasis is that's really where the conversation is right now. The loudest voices, even though the, the current government in place is, you know, the position that they would represent more would be that they are increasing deportation and they are. That, that's, that's something that's a focus of them. But really the loudest voices right now that I hear are especially bringing faith into it is saying Christians shouldn't be for deportations or Christians should be the most compassionate people, AKA that means they should stand for open borders or they should never in any sense stand for anything that could in any way divide a family up because Christians say they're pro family. I mean, to be fair, as throughout the United States history, the Christian position has always been that if somebody does something illegal, that is something that can separate them from their families through.
Because the, sometimes the consequences for illegal prison or whatever. Yeah. And so that. But that's not at all our wish. That's not our desire.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Plus, if you're going to have laws, you have to enforce them. I think it's part of just the practice, practical reality. You can't just say you have laws and then not enforce them.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it goes without saying, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
We do believe part of the reason we hold the position. We do is we believe that there's some just like common sense involved too, where we're both parents.
What you just said about, you know, laws are only as good as their enforcement of them.
We talk regularly. We're both nice guys. We can be kind of softies with our kids. And it's like if we don't hold to the rules in our house, then they're not rules anymore.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: If we don't actually, if we don't actually enforce any consequences very, very quickly on a very micro scale. But all those rules become completely one
[00:33:18] Speaker A: of those things that I think I have emoted out loud before at home. I've just been like, can't you guys just do what I said so I don't have to.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: Be a disciplinarian. I don't want to be a disciplinari.
[00:33:28] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: But if I'm not, then you won't ever do what I say. That's just, unfortunately, that's just how it works.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: And as it relates to this topic, we as Christian pastors, our, our dream would be that we can bring in people through a good process that brings in people who will contribute especially. And those who are fleeing from danger from other places, especially them, as a priority. That we would go through a great process so that we could do all this the right way, legally, with justice and compassion altogether. But that's just not where we stand right now. So while it can sound unloving to say it's okay for a Christian to say borders are good, borders are helpful. Enforcing a nation's laws about borders is good and helpful. It can sound like it totally lacks compassion.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: But that has more to do with the brokenness and sin of our world than us wanting to have a. Wanting to hold to a policy that's mean or harsh.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Well, I think one of the underlying foundational beliefs is just that that law does love people. Or that. Yeah, I mean, that sounds. That law does love people. Right. That's the point of having laws, is to create a healthy situation for people.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: So let me close on this idea.
Micah 6, 8 is a. Is an important Bible passage. I think the prophets are full of bringing together both of these ideas. We're talking about justice and compassion. I think that's one of those verses that does it really well. Micah 6. Eight, do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. So there it is. Justice and mercy.
They're not separate. They're not opposed to each other. They work together.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: And as Christians, we have to have both of those things.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: Yeah. If I had to sum up kind of where my mind's at with these things is I would challenge Christians to stand for, on a policy matter, stand for the. The rule of law in our country and on a personal level, then seek out how can I be a compassionate person to the people around me, especially those who have had to flee their homeland or who are seeking more freedom and opportunity in this country?
[00:35:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: Well, thanks, brother. Thanks everybody for listening. Hope you have an awesome week.
[00:36:05] Speaker C: Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone, someone today you can follow. That's Good question. And find more episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. That's Good Question is brought to you by Round the Table, a Ministry of Peace church in Meadowville, Michigan.
