Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Hey, welcome to that's a Good question. I'm John, and welcome to a special episode where we take questions live from an audience at Peace Church. Myself and two other pastors from the church. Hope you enjoy. Hope it's a great chance to learn and grow.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Okay.
The question that we got most frequently for this round comes off of a sermon series through the Gospel of Mark. And we had that for our Easter sermon series. And we got a couple people who asked about the end of the Gospel of Mark, Mark 16, specifically verses 9 and 20. Here's one example of a question that came in.
It said, today Pastor Ryan talked about the importance of finishing a verse or passage.
With that in mind, can you give some context to mark 16, 9, 20, and why we seem to avoid it in our Mark series?
[00:01:03] Speaker C: I can answer it, but it was actually your section. We appreciate it.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Just going to throw the blame right over here.
That's fair. That's fine.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: I can preface if you want to preach that sermon. No, yeah, yeah. No, actually, I would say I've answered that question in the lobby probably almost every Sunday for like the last four or five Sundays.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: Okay. People have been asking.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: A lot of people have been asking. Yeah. So if you get to the end of Mark 16, if you're looking at your Bible and you're reading along, or if you were following along in the sermon series, then you came across this portion of scripture that looks really strange. It's got brackets around it.
You read some notes there from the editor. If you read the ESV or. Or, you know, another translation, it's got some notes there that it's viewed differently. Oh, yeah, I can read it here. Here we go. It says some of the earliest manuscripts do not include Mark 16, 9, 20. And that's exactly it. I think that's one of the beautiful things about the Bible and the editing teams that we have is that they're not trying to hide anything from us. They're just being honest and telling us like it is. So going back to the earliest manuscripts that we have of the Gospel of Mark, manuscripts like Codex, how to pronounce this is a little tough, but it's Sinai, Atticus, Sinaiticus, at Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, those earliest manuscripts that we have don't include that portion of Mark.
If you wanted to get a long answer to this question, a guy named Wes Huff is a great apologist, and he's a scholar in this area. He's got a video on YouTube. If you type in Wes Huff, mark 16. There's a great video you can watch that explains it in detail.
But so later manuscripts do include this.
So it's pretty clear that Mark didn't write that section, but that the scribes later kind of became aware of this longer ending that somebody had written and started including it. But even when they started including it, they would notate it in the. In the. In the script as being a little bit different.
And so even from the earliest texts that we have of the New Testament, guys are saying, all right, this is. This is a portion here that's in circulation that people know about, but we know it's different. We know it's probably not written by Mark, and so it's in there. And so the editors just want to be honest with us and tell us that now it doesn't change anything. Right. We have stories from Matthew, Luke, and John that tell us what happens after the resurrection of Jesus.
There's Nothing in Mark 16 that is like, you know, a doctrine, a teaching that's totally dependent on that passage. You know, it overlaps with the other Gospels. And so it's not like we're missing out on any kind of main teaching or anything like this. Just the editors being honest. Honest with us about what was going on there.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Awesome, thanks.
So we got this question in when we are in heaven, how will it be that we won't experience pain when we know loved ones are in hell?
We've been in a tougher sermon series, Lines in the sand, and talking a lot about the. Those realities of heaven and hell.
[00:04:02] Speaker C: Yeah. And so, man, that's a really heartfelt question.
I had a family member who was a philosophy major ask me one time when I was a little boy, when I was younger, he said, is it really if heaven is perfect?
Is it perfect if the people you love aren't there?
And it was his confession. I'm not a Christian, and so if going to heaven is contingent on me being a Christian, I'm not going to be there. I know that you love me, and so will heaven be perfect without me?
And that as a. As a growing up, I really wrestled with that.
And so on the one hand, I want to say I haven't been in heaven. And so I can't necessarily answer that from experience.
So let me give you my surmising as a pastor and a person who studied Scripture, what I would say is, in heaven, we have perfect joy and satisfaction in the justice of God.
And so when we're there, we delight in God and we delight in his justice. And if that is the perfect enactment of God's justice, that some people are suffering their punishments and some people are receiving a reward they didn't deserve, then I think at some point there'll be a reckoning for us with that.
And so, again, like, I answer that, admitting I ultimately don't know because I haven't been there. But as I think about that question, how could I be in heaven? How could I enjoy heaven knowing people I love aren't there or people I loved here? And I think ultimately the thing I would settle on at this point, and we can have this conversation when we get to heaven, I'd settle on the notion that we delight in God and his perfect plan. And part of his perfect plan is perfect justice. And if they're not there, it's because justice, which is a good thing, is being enacted out.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: You nailed it. It's hard. It's hard for people to hear. It's hard to swallow. Hard.
[00:05:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: So, yeah, in this life, I don't.
[00:05:56] Speaker C: I don't say that at this point, like, relishing that.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Totally perfect. Exactly.
Yeah. In this life, we are sad. We mourn for those we love that didn't receive forgiveness of sins by putting their trust in Jesus. And yet, yeah, we know that that is perfect justice being enacted, and I think we'll be able to understand it and accept it fully for eternity.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Some good theological questions, and there's also a lot of current event questions coming in. So let's jump into some of those.
Here's one. How should Christians think about fairness and justice when it comes to how voting districts are drawn?
One that's in the news these days.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: I've heard that Pastor Nate is an expert on redistricting and gerrymandering.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Can you explain to us?
[00:06:45] Speaker B: It's a shame. I'm the host tonight because I would love to get into detail, but I
[00:06:50] Speaker A: really want to leave it. You guys know why it's called gerrymandering?
[00:06:53] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a. This is a really interesting story.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: The governor of Massachusetts was a guy whose last name was Jerry. I forget his first name, but his
[00:07:01] Speaker C: last name, Elbridge or something like that.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Something like that. And he redrew his district in the shape of a salamander.
And so Gerry and salamander. Gerrymandering. That's how they came up with the. That's what. That's the word that they use to talk about redistricting. It's called gerrymandering. And when you make it into a weird shape.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: And this is called filibustering right now, that's Right.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: You got it, man.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: Is there one of you going to answer the question or are we just going to do.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: I'll answer it.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Okay. Okay.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: So if we're going to have the government structure that we have with a Congress and not a dictator, but branches of government, and we have like a general election for our president, we need to have more localized elections for representatives.
Now, what we've come to realize is there is no perfect way for that to happen.
That levels the playing field for everyone.
Even if you take like a county and you grid it out and that's how you did it, just by longitude and latitude, the way that population is dispersed, that doesn't help. And so when you think about how you draw these districts, there's really like, there's a few different ways you can do it. It's really. There's kind of four different ways you can do it based on, like, population, just putting groups, putting areas together by population.
You can do it by party, by voting party, which is where gerrymandering comes from. You can do it by region.
Again, just saying, like dividing an area just equally regionally by like equal square miles, or you can do it as.
Which is in the news right now is by race and making sure that minorities are grouped together. And historically, with the Voting Rights act was supposed to be the idea that then they would have a voice based on their race. And what the Supreme Court recently said is it's against the Constitution to give preference by race like that.
And so I can't remember what year it was, but the Supreme Court ruled that gerrymandering, there's no way around it because there's no way to divide our voting districts equally. That's fair for everyone. There's no way to do that. There's going to be a fault. Someone's going to be favored in some aspect. But what the most recent thing was saying that if we're going to do this, we're not going to do it based on race.
And because minorities aren't a homogenized group that all think in, like, the same way.
Now, again, like, I'm already getting to political theory. I'm not a political scientist. There's people who are way more educated and way more opinion on it, opinionated on it than I am.
So when I think about it, I think, what is the most fair way to do this? Knowing that there's no perfect way. And honestly, I'm not smart enough to know that. I will say, though, in my soul, anything that's going to be race based Typically doesn't feel right to me as a Christian, and maybe feelings aren't what I want to put in play, but just doesn't seem right to me from a biblical viewpoint that we're not going to categorize one way of thinking as composed by an entire single race. And so the question about fairness and justice, it is ultimately what's going to be the most equitable and equal for the most amount of people.
There's no way for that to happen perfectly. So which ways are we going to do it?
And that's where I'd love to have a conversation with someone.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: I am no expert either. What I would maybe add to that is just that often the conversation becomes about outcomes, whereas I think what's more important here is the process.
So a lot of people want to quickly jump to, well, the outcomes of elections are this, and therefore it's unfair and things like that. I think for us as Christians, it's about. We want to have fairness and justice and how the process is done in our constitutional representative republic. And so, yeah, it's not easy. I'm not any expert on the rules at all, but as a Christian, our goal is just that. Yeah, we want to create the most fair, the most just way to do a process for districting that just gets fair votes. That's what we want.
[00:11:05] Speaker C: Nope. I like that.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: How exactly to do that is tough
[00:11:08] Speaker C: and tricky because again, you're kind of having to make a concession at some point with some one way you're doing it. And I think what you're saying is we can't necessarily always understand the outcomes, but we can understand is the process making sure that is as fair as possible. Sure.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Thanks, guys. That was a more complex political one. Thanks for.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: You know, you were the expert, but you sat back and let us converse, muddle our way through it.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: I want to give you guys a way more simple one. This one's easy. What does peace think about a potential Trump third term?
[00:11:42] Speaker C: You mean fourth term.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Oh, no
[00:11:47] Speaker C: kidding. 100%. No.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: It's constitutional amendment.
[00:11:50] Speaker C: 100. No.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Plain and simple.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: Hey, someone just sent in. What happened to the idea about the live mic for questions I can answer?
[00:11:58] Speaker C: I was voted no on that.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you guys voted.
[00:12:00] Speaker C: I was shot down.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: The last group here voted. There was more people who said they didn't want the live mic. Yeah, so just keep hiding.
[00:12:08] Speaker C: So I'm not a dictator.
Not a dictator. I wanted it, but I was outvoted.
[00:12:13] Speaker B: All right, well, let's. I, I'm, I'm joking, but I Was joking with that last one, but we're going to go more. Let's go more biblical theological church stuff next.
What are your thoughts on house churches?
[00:12:28] Speaker C: It's a good question.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Maybe define in case people don't know what that kind of phenomenon movement is in the modern.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of people would say that a house church is just a super small church that meets in a house, not having a building. So probably 10, 20 people, maybe 30, something like that.
Nothing wrong with that. That's great. I think that's how the church starts in a lot of places. I think there are pros and cons. There are advantages to being small. You're nimble, you're quick, you're able to have deep relationships, those kind of things.
I think from.
I've read articles from places where house churches are very popular and one of the major struggles they have is that because there's so many very small churches that it's really hard to have elders and pastors who are really well equipped in the Bible. And so what you end up with very quickly is, you know, you've got a group of only 10, 20 people, and so somebody with a loud voice all of a sudden has a. Has a strong opinion about theology that might be wrong. And suddenly they've led this whole church in a very unhealthy direction because there's not enough size that you can have like we do. We're blessed to have multiple elders and pastors and so we can check each other. We can say, hey, what you're saying does not accord with scripture. Let's look at it, let's figure it out. So there's pros and cons.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think what you just said, in the very basic definition of it, there's not necessarily an issue there.
Like we said, like, in many ways the New Testament church started by meeting in homes, then gathering at the temple. And that obviously evolved into a different sort of setup.
I think the question in more relevant recent times probably has a different sort of angle to the question.
And I would say, I think a lot of times what I see, what I've seen, what I've seen is house churches are started and it really feels like just a group of friends who don't want to be part of a larger system.
So it feels almost a little bit more rebellious than a source of driving unity in the church. Like, we don't like how a church does this, so we're going to start our own thing and ends up becoming very insular. And like you were mentioning there's no elder pastor oversight. It's just a group of Christians who become disenfranchised with, you know, structured church.
And so they, they start this thing without the blessing or the commissioning of another church or a governing body. And it feels very cliquey, very club like. And honestly, just that that'd be like a critique I'd have. Now again, like the notion of if we were to, let's say, like, let's say we mentioned a lot of people come from Lowell. Let's say we wanted Peace Church, wanted to start a church in Lowell.
We got 20 people together, we commissioned, blessed them and their first location was in a home. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But the notion of we're running to start house churches because we don't like this or we don't want to come under the authority of that, I think there's an issue there that I can't see as the Bible affirming.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: And if you're a healthy house church, then you're trying to reach your neighbors and eventually you're going to outgrow that house, Lord willing. Yeah, right.
So usually the places where house churches is like a long term model is in places like China or places where the church is being persecuted. And so it's really hard to gather in small, in large numbers because you'll be arrested or something. So that makes a lot of sense.
In a country like ours where you can gather in large groups as Christians, then house church maybe is a way to plant a new church, but maybe not.
If you remain a church of only 10, 20 people, you have to kind of wonder like, why is that? Is there a reason for that? Are we trying, like you were saying, are you trying to be insular and just kind of actually just be a clique than a church?
[00:16:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: We've been talking a lot about evangelism reaching your neighbor lately here at Peace Church, and we had some questions that came in on it. I'll just read one of them. How do you advise having conversations about faith with family members who know about Jesus but don't go to church or live out their faith and who want to avoid those conversations? So how do you share your faith with family members who actively do not want to hear about your faith?
[00:16:56] Speaker C: So again, there's going to be a lot of nuance to that question. Are we saying that there are people who, who could articulate the gospel but just haven't accepted it in their heart?
That's a different situation versus someone who just says, I don't Know, I don't care about this. I don't want to know about it. If they've known the gospel and they've rejected it, then I think the best you can do is love them with the love of Christ and pray for them and maybe every now and again see if they'd be open to revisiting the conversation.
If their heart is just cold, stone cold. Off to that, I would say again, the notion of acts of love and service are great. I think there's also times where you can have confrontation and just say, what do you think is going to happen when you die? Like, make them forced to come to their own conclusions of their own worldview, bring them to the logical end of what they believe and make them sit in that moment. And when they do and they realize how horrible it is, that's where we can bring in the beautiful aspects of the gospel.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Yeah, there's been some people in my life that are sort of in that category where they're. They've heard I've shared the gospel with them before, they've said no, and they expect me to just, you know, never bring it up again.
And so sometimes I'll just. I think. I think just embracing the awkward is. Is a good approach.
It doesn't always work, but I think it can be good. And so I've. I've before said, hey, I know we've talked about this before, but hey, I just, you know, you know that I care about this a lot, so I just got to bring it up every once in a while. Right. So where are you at with the whole Jesus thing?
Has anything changed since last time we talked?
What do you think right now? You know, that's just a way to kind of broach the topic. So, yeah, you know, maybe not. Not every week or something like that, but every once in a while to just say, hey, has anything changed? Could we talk about this again? Do you have any questions for me?
[00:18:43] Speaker B: That's good question came in that said, I grew up reading the niv, the new international version of the Bible, and pronouns referring to God were always capitalized. When I write, I use capital letters when referring to God, using he or him.
Is there a reason that ESV has gone away from that, from capitalizing those divine pronouns?
[00:19:08] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question.
So it really just comes down to ESV is trying to follow basic grammar, formalized English grammar.
I personally prefer capitalizing the pronouns for God.
And actually, me and John are writing a book right now with moody publishers. We're going to be sharing that with the church fairly soon. But as we write our manuscripts, one thing that I really love about working with Moody is that they have required that we capitalize the pronouns for God, which we appreciate. And so the question there is. I don't think it's necessarily a.
A statement of disrespect towards God. I think it's just they're trying to follow modern grammar rules.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: I was so more comfortable capitalizing it, but there have been times when I've been running and I've been like. I get a little confused, and I'm like, shoot. Am I referring to.
You know, you lose track of who you're referring to in the pronoun, and it can get a little messy sometimes. So then you end up being inconsistent. And so, yeah, my preference would be to just capitalize it. But that does mean you have to be careful and keep track of.
[00:20:10] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: Whether you're doing that or not.
[00:20:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: I'm going to preempt some expected questions that I think are coming in, but are you guys allowed to share what you're writing about, or is that still top secret? You can't share.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: It's not top secret at all.
[00:20:25] Speaker C: No, it's not. Actually.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: I think I know what it is. There's a question that came in about the topic. Can I ask the question?
[00:20:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Then you can. This will give you a hint on what they're writing about. Why are so many people deconstructing their faith right now?
And how should the church respond when someone starts questioning everything? We got that question in.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: Sweet.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: Goes in line with what you guys are writing about.
[00:20:48] Speaker C: So me and John are writing a book on deconstruction, and if you don't know what that is, we'll explain in just a second.
But the book is called why We Haven't Deconstructed by Two Guys who Should Have. And if that sounds familiar to you, it's because it's in reference to a book that came out about 20 years ago. If you remember, about 20 years ago in the evangelical world, there was a movement called the Emergent Church, and it was really just the early 2000s version of liberalism trying to creep in into conservative evangelical spaces. And two guys wrote a book called why We're Not Emergent.
And very popular book. Very helpful for those who are wrestling with.
Is the Emergent Church actually just ahead of the curve.
And so we looked at what's going on in our cultural landscape, and deconstruction seems to be a big. A big thing that a lot of particularly evangelicals are falling into. And so we proposed an idea to moody publishers about why we haven't deconstructed, even though there's things about our each unique story that in other settings maybe we would have deconstructed. And so what deconstruction is, is it's really.
I'd say it's a movement. Some people don't like to call it a movement, but it is a.
It's a movement that. Where people are deconstructing the faith that they grew up with.
So they were raised in typically evangelical to fundamentalist churches and very rigid and clear on theology. And a lot of times that's coupled with a history with the church that sometimes is maybe hurtful.
And so you see a lot of people, particularly 20s to early 40s, going through what's called deconstruction. So they're. They're deconstructing what they have been taught growing up and trying to find what they would say is in many ways a new way to believe in Jesus. But I think for many of them, they say it's deconstruction, but it's actually destruction. They've destroyed their faith because they've let go of the core tenets of the gospel, such as the embodied resurrection of Jesus, the Bible is the word of God, these sorts of things. And so me and John are in the midst of writing a book where our manuscript is due at the end of the month.
We're praying that it's a helpful tool for God's kingdom and particularly for those who are deconstructing or looking at. Deconstructing.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah, we're excited to get to speak to them through the words of the page and hopefully talk them off the cliff and bring them back.
[00:23:12] Speaker C: So for the answer questions, give them, give them our book when it comes out.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: But in the time being, in time
[00:23:19] Speaker C: being, I think what it is, is it's really important to not come across as judgmental, any sort of criticism. Just for those who are in that space, they're like walking around with an open wound and any sort of push on them feels it's going to make them recoil and push back. And I'm not saying you don't bring them hard truths, but I am saying it's very important that the first thing you communicate to them is your love for them, your appreciation that they are taking things seriously, that they're thinking hard about what they have been taught growing up, and they're wrestling with that. Those are good things. Now, unfortunately, a lot of people have taken those things and they end up pushing it away. And so I would say, if you're encountering someone in your life who's deconstructing, love them.
Be thankful that they're taking things seriously in the sense of that they're entertaining what they've been taught at a next level.
But I think what you do is then draw them back to the truth of the gospel.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: John, how would you encourage them to ask questions and ask them questions in return?
Because I think one of the things that, you know, the very name itself, deconstruction, you know, so it's all about kind of tearing down without rebuilding something. And so I think one of my questions for somebody who's tearing down the Christian belief system is to say, what are you replacing it with? All of us believe something.
You've got criticism towards this belief system. What is the belief system you're building in its place? And does it actually work? Is it actually coherent?
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Thanks, guys.
Questions came in on Sabbath observance, Sunday observance. So here's one that comes in. What is okay versus not okay to do on a Sunday?
[00:25:05] Speaker C: I guess it depends on if that's the day you. You honor as the Sabbath. Cause if you wanna go straight up biblical, the Sabbath is Saturday.
And so I guess when it comes to what can you do on Sunday, biblically speaking, anything but sin.
But to get what they're talking about, I think when they say, when you talk about the day that you've set aside as your day of rest, I would say you do things that honor God through rest, through worship, spending time in his word, that you. You seek to have a time where you can really focus and press into him, to get rejuvenated and refreshed, to go and work for him the rest of the week.
Is there? Is there? I feel like you might know. Is there an underlying question to this that I may be missing?
[00:25:51] Speaker B: No, I think you're hitting it. John, you have anything to add?
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the Sabbath observance thing is one of those interesting things that it is probably like of the Pharisees in the New. You know, in the New Testament, in Jesus Day. Those were the. That was. That's a thing that we sort of make for them, right? Because they got a little crazy with Sabbath observance and started to say, you can travel this many paces, but no more.
But if you stash a snack at somebody's house, you can travel that number of paces to that house, and then you get another set of paces you can travel on the Sabbath. I'm not Joking. That's totally real. That's actually, that was the rules that they had. So that stuff's kind of crazy. So you've got. So people have that in their mind. So with that in mind, we try not to be legalistic and yet also try not to give up that God calls us to rest.
[00:26:40] Speaker C: So I take Friday as my Sabbath. That's the day that I do all I can to avoid checking emails. I try not to think about my work as far as my profession.
Our admin elders who I report to, they respect and honor. They don't ever, you know, aside from emergency, they don't bother me on Fridays. And it's a day where I just try to spend time with my wife, spend time with my kids, rest, relax, try not to do things around the house. It's just a day just to. Just to rest. I mean, what can you do? I don't think it's less about what you shouldn't do and what you should do. What you should do is find space to rest and worship and connect with the Lord.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: One of the ways I think about it is it's a chance to break the routine. So I think key is that it's not the same as the other days.
It's supposed to be a special day.
So I've heard people try to say that, well, parents all week, you work hard to take care of your kids. So on the Sabbath, don't take care of your kids. And I just that you clearly don't have kids that you're telling me this. So you know, there are some things that you have to do on the Sabbath that can be challenging and difficult. But just make it different, break the routine, make it a special day.
[00:27:59] Speaker C: I mean, Jesus is pretty clear the Sabbath was made for us. The Sabbath is meant to serve us when it becomes a burden. Now we're serving the Sabbath. That's backwards.
And Jesus came to free us from the burden of the law that we could never fulfill perfectly anyway. And it's meant for our enjoyment.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: You want to know what time I fell into a trap that someone set for me on the Sabbath or on a Sunday. I at peace. And I'd finished the third service and a gentleman caught me in the lobby and he was giving me the we only work one day a week deal as pastors. That's those jokes, they get a little old after a while, just so you know.
But then he also said, oh, it must be nice. You just work in the morning and then you get to go home and sleep the rest of the Day.
And I. He was really getting me. So I said. Actually, I said, my wife just texted me, and she said I got to mow the lawn as soon as I get home.
And I thought I was gonna get him back. And he said, on the Sabbath. And I realized I fell right into his trap. So he got me no matter what. I said I was gonna get in trouble. This one just came in, and I think it's a good general open one, but it said, what is your definition of a miracle? And are they happening today? And if so, where are they happening today?
[00:29:16] Speaker C: Yes, I believe they are happening.
What's a miracle? I would say, I'd like to hear, actually, John, like to hear your definition on this.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Oh, I see how it is.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: No, no, no, I'll answer it.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: I'll answer it.
[00:29:27] Speaker C: I'll answer it.
[00:29:28] Speaker A: I'm trying to remember my. This is taking me back because this is a classic. This is a classic David Hume argument about how you define miracle. Sets you up to either succeed or fail the test.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: Yeah, it is. It is. And so I don't know if this person knows this, that this is one of those traps or not. For just a genuine innocent question, the notion of what is a miracle is actually a very deep theological question that people spend way too much ink trying to figure that out what actually constitutes a true miracle. I'd probably say anything that goes against what would be the expected natural law outcome of the moment, whether that is the healing, the resurrection from the dead, something to those effects, speaking the language that. That you don't know.
That's probably one of the quickest ways I'd say it. But again, like the common church attender probably doesn't. Isn't aware how hotly of a question and deep of a question that actually is for those who spend way too much time thinking instead of evangelizing.
That was a little stab, but that's probably the quick way I'd say it. I'd say it.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Yeah. What are we driving at?
[00:30:36] Speaker C: So it's.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: How do you decide a miracle? What are they.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: Are they happening?
[00:30:39] Speaker C: Oh, where?
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Where?
[00:30:41] Speaker B: Yeah, where do we see it today?
[00:30:42] Speaker A: Oh, okay, gotcha.
[00:30:44] Speaker C: So CS Lewis talks about this a little bit in the Screwtape letters. I had this conversation on Easter because a question like this came up in the Screwtape letters. I think there's a really awesome part, you know, Screwtape letters. It's a fictional series of letters written from one demon to another demon. And this senior demons coaching this younger demon on how to lead people astray. Awesome book. I recommend it for every Christian.
And at one part the junior demon is asking the senior demon, why can't I just like attack this guy?
And the senior demon is like, hey, at this point in the Western world we don't do that.
Because in the Western world if you expose yourself then the Western world is going to become very aware of the spiritual and we like to keep them in the dark. We like the Western world not believing in the spiritual.
So if you attack him and you expose yourself, the Western mind is going to know the spiritual is real and that makes them more open to believing in God. So we don't do that. And essentially then the idea there is that we do that in other parts of the world that aren't so lock minded for just the scientific worldview. And so for us, I think there is a notion where things like that now that's from the demonic, but I think the notion there is that there's, there's places where people are much more open to the working of the spiritual and much more open to the working of the spirit.
And so I'd say talk to missionaries who do work in Africa or Indonesia or the Caribbean. I mean, there are miraculous things happening for the glory of God. And I think even in the Muslim world there's miracles happening not through the Muslim faith, but to reach the Muslims.
And so I think it's happening. I just don't think we see it because I think in many times we have fallen into a purely scientific, humanistic, naturalistic worldview that doesn't even have the eyes to see the miracles that are happening around us.
I mean, even think about what's the. Maybe someone can help me.
The term for when someone's miraculously healed or someone has cancer and it's immediately taken away, we would say it's a miracle. The scientific world would say it's.
Spontaneous remission, I think is the term that they would use. Spontaneous remission. When someone's healed of cancer, they can't explain why.
These are sorts of language that the Western mind employs because we don't have categories for the spiritual. I think that's part of the reason why we don't see it more is because we just, we're just not. Our eyes aren't open, our mind's not open towards it.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:33:22] Speaker D: Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone today. You can follow that's Good question and find more episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. That's Good Question is brought to you by Round the Table a Ministry of Peace Church in Meadowville, Michigan.
